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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deniseuk190466 on January 31, 2024, at 7:46:58
Hi,
Does anyone have any ideas on why, if ECT is the gold standard in depression treatment, then didn't it work for me?
Why does medication help me to a certain extent but ECT didn't change anything. I did have bilateral treatments as well.
Denise
Posted by Hugh on February 1, 2024, at 10:12:39
In reply to If ECT is the gold standard, posted by deniseuk190466 on January 31, 2024, at 7:46:58
ECT helps about 80% of people who try it. Depression can have many causes, and there might never be a single treatment that helps everyone. JohnLA used to post here frequently about the many treatments he'd tried for his depression, including ECT. He had his done at UCLA, where he recognized celebrities who were receiving ECT. JohnLA wasn't helped by ECT. The treatment that finally helped him was Deep TMS.
I've read about people who weren't helped by ECT, but were helped by neurofeedback, or by psychedelics.
Posted by SLS on February 1, 2024, at 22:56:15
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard, posted by Hugh on February 1, 2024, at 10:12:39
I would recommend a form of transcranial magnetic stimulation developed at Stanford University. It seems to be significantly more effective than previous magnetic treatments. The treatment is called SAINT. Should I relapse, SAINT would be my first choice as an adjunct to antidepressants in order to "recapture" remission.
- Scott
Posted by Hugh on February 5, 2024, at 18:40:06
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard » Hugh, posted by SLS on February 1, 2024, at 22:56:15
Since SAINT is an intensive TMS protocol that only takes five consecutive days to complete, it would be ideal to use it in conjunction with psilocybin or MDMA, since these drugs significantly increase neuroplasticity for two weeks. LSD increases neuroplasticity for three weeks.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20230117/msgs/1122098.html
> I would recommend a form of transcranial magnetic stimulation developed at Stanford University. It seems to be significantly more effective than previous magnetic treatments. The treatment is called SAINT. Should I relapse, SAINT would be my first choice as an adjunct to antidepressants in order to "recapture" remission.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on February 5, 2024, at 22:27:33
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard » SLS, posted by Hugh on February 5, 2024, at 18:40:06
Hi, Hugh.
> Since SAINT is an intensive TMS protocol that only takes five consecutive days to complete, it would be ideal to use it in conjunction with psilocybin or MDMA, since these drugs significantly increase neuroplasticity for two weeks. LSD increases neuroplasticity for three weeks.Combining the two treatments is a brilliant proposition, especially given your explanation.
I spoke to my doctor last week regarding psilocybin. No-go. I have had a rough week because depression has been creeping in. I haven't slept very much recently because our dog gets lonely at 3:00 am and jumps up onto the bed. Inadequate amounts of sleep can sabotage a depressive in remission. It terrorizes me to think that I might relapse tomorrow. I can't go back down into the pit of hell.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20230117/msgs/1122098.htmlThanks for the link.
- Scott
Posted by Hugh on February 6, 2024, at 13:29:55
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard » Hugh, posted by SLS on February 5, 2024, at 22:27:33
Hi Scott,
I thought this study might interest you. It's the first of its kind using a psychedelic to treat bipolar depression.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/bipolardisorder/107697
Posted by Hugh on February 6, 2024, at 13:35:54
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard » Hugh, posted by SLS on February 5, 2024, at 22:27:33
If the link in my previous post doesn't work, this one should.
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2024, at 15:16:00
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard » SLS, posted by Hugh on February 6, 2024, at 13:35:54
Hi.
> If the link in my previous post doesn't work, this one should.
>
> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-ever-psilocybin-clinical-trial-for-treatment-of-bipolar-ii-depression-conducted-at-sheppard-pratt-reveals-promising-results-302007957.htmlThanks again.
I am concerned that the efficacy of these psychedelics depends upon the intensity of the dissociative or psychedelic reaction to them. How whacked-out do you have to get in order to receive a clinical improvement? What are the potential permanent or persistent changes in one's psyche that psilocybin produces.
- Scott
Posted by Hugh on February 7, 2024, at 12:20:42
In reply to Re: If ECT is the gold standard » Hugh, posted by SLS on February 6, 2024, at 15:16:00
It probably isn't necessary to take large doses of psychedelics to induce neuroplasticity. It's been hypothesized that microdoses, taken regularly, can induce neuroplasticity.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-022-01389-z
From the 1960s until the early 2000s, the United States government spent many millions of dollars to propagate the myth that LSD, psilocybin, and especially MDMA can cause permanent damage to the brain.
https://maps.org/research-archive/mdma/studyresponse.html
The following quote is from "What do we know about the risks of psychedelics?" by Bridget Huber.General safety information
In Drugs -- Without the Hot Air, David Nutt calls psychedelics "among the safest drugs we know of." He and a team of experts in addiction, drug policy, psychology and other fields ranked 20 drugs on their harmfulness, using criteria ranging from drug-related mortality (death by overdose) to environmental damage. Overall, psilocybin mushrooms were ranked as the least harmful drug, followed by LSD and the addiction drug buprenorphine, which had the same score. Alcohol was ranked most harmful (more than ten times as harmful as mushrooms or LSD), followed by heroin, then crack. Referring to mushrooms and LSD, Nutt writes:
"It's virtually impossible to die from an overdose of them; they cause no physical harm; and if anything they are anti-addictive, as they cause a sudden tolerance which means that if you immediately take another dose it will probably have very little effect."
Matthias Liechti recently published a paper in Nature that reviews all of the clinical research on LSD that's been done in the past 25 years. In these controlled settings, subjects' experience of LSD was "predominately positive," he writes, and no severe adverse reactions to LSD were reported.
> Hi.
>
> > If the link in my previous post doesn't work, this one should.
> >
> > https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-ever-psilocybin-clinical-trial-for-treatment-of-bipolar-ii-depression-conducted-at-sheppard-pratt-reveals-promising-results-302007957.html
>
> Thanks again.
>
> I am concerned that the efficacy of these psychedelics depends upon the intensity of the dissociative or psychedelic reaction to them. How whacked-out do you have to get in order to receive a clinical improvement? What are the potential permanent or persistent changes in one's psyche that psilocybin produces.
>
>
> - Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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