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Posted by Christ_empowered on January 5, 2021, at 12:48:31
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 10:07:11
just jumping in here...
i don't think it is a linear relationship. a former psychiatrist told me she had given up issuing new prescriptions for olanzapine, mainly because she'd seen even low doses cause serious problems. frightening tidbit: she told me that she'd seen zyprexa cause metabolic disorders, even without massive weight gain. --stay up on your lab work, please--
all of the tranquilizers are associated with at least a bit of weight gain, except maybe moban and geodon, both of which have other, serious adverse effects for people/patients to contend with, of course.
have you ever been given a trial of the newer d2 partial agonists? they're -not- wonder drugs or anything, but maybe worth a shot, perhaps?
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:57:16
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Christ_empowered on January 5, 2021, at 12:48:31
I do.
> . --stay up on your lab work, please--
Yeah, Abilify=Akathisia. I'm not trying conventional psychmeds anymore. I have tried many many many and what I have learned is: Don't try!
> have you ever been given a trial of the newer d2 partial agonists? they're -not- wonder drugs or anything, but maybe worth a shot, perhaps?
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:58:01
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:57:16
For myself. Others may be different.
> and what I have learned is: Don't try!
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:17:52
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 12:58:01
It is possible that a psychmed helps, but from my experience it is highly unlikely. It is much more likely to do damage if risks and side effects are taken into account. This is my personal experience if we are speaking about me.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:32:57
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:17:52
And replacing one problem with another is not help!!!
Posted by undopaminergic on January 6, 2021, at 3:09:22
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 5, 2021, at 13:17:52
> It is possible that a psychmed helps, but from my experience it is highly unlikely. It is much more likely to do damage if risks and side effects are taken into account. This is my personal experience if we are speaking about me.
>OK, but you are already taking 5! If these are helping, why is it so unlikely you'd find another?
That said, 5 sounds like enough.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 3:19:37
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 6, 2021, at 3:09:22
Well, 3 of them are extremely low dose. Lithium is basically a supplement or me at 225mg, and 75mg Trazodone and 37.5 Venlafaxine. It is the only thing that helps, because the dose is so low that it doesn't replace one problem with another. If I took more, I wouldn't consider it as help because then other problems would kick in. So that is luck that it works (a little bit) at such a low dose
Seroquel and Zyprexa in my regimen are a result of med induced psychosis from Nardil. They work, but they do cause a lot of additional problems!
I think my best bet is to further slowly reduce Seroquel. I know what effects and side effects to expect. I am trying to tackle the weight gain with supplements and careful dosage reduction. And lifestyle!
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 3:21:59
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 3:19:37
I am not 300 pounds. If I were, it would pose a direct threat to my health and I would consider changing to different Neuroleptics. But as of now it is not that bad. And weight can be lost. It is reversible. As you know (Reboxetine), some things that new meds could easily cause, are not reversible.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 6, 2021, at 10:42:37
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 3:21:59
> As you know (Reboxetine), some things that new meds could easily cause, are not reversible.
>Once in a while, it happens that a drug turns out to have lasting effects, for better or worse. For me, at the time, the depersonalisation from reboxetine was welcome. Now I want my feelings and experience of reality back. I don't think it is irreversible, I just haven't found the way yet.
When it comes to paranoia, I think you must have it in order to outgrow it. So it happened with me. I first learned to live with being in the "spotlight" whatever the devices surveilling me and whoever watching and listening. With time, I saw that there was nothing to worry about, and now, I rarely even think of it, unless there is some good reason to (such as if I noticed someone else was using my dr-bob account!). For that reason, you may wish to lower the antipsychotic dose until you get some paranoia, just enough so that you can handle it and learn to deal with it. I guess this amounts to "exposure therapy".
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 11:22:48
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 6, 2021, at 10:42:37
Right, I shouldnt get too comfortable in my neuroleptic bubble. My reduction from 700 to 650 made the carb cravings a bit more manageable. Now I can resist much more often. Maybe the curve we talked about now begins to become steeper. IE: The reductions I do from now on will have more of an effect on weight gain than the ones I did before. That is my hope.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 11:32:30
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 11:22:48
Im also confident I can figure it out without med changes. And this way I dont risk becoming unstable.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 12:05:30
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 11:22:48
I am usually not conservative, but with my mental health and meds I am. There is more to lose than to win in this case.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 0:11:04
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 6, 2021, at 12:05:30
> I am usually not conservative, but with my mental health and meds I am. There is more to lose than to win in this case.
>You already had disastrous effects from Nardil. Do you think you are particularly sensitive to medications in general, or what is the likelihood of having such bad luck with another drug?
What you have to win? *If* you find the right medications, you can have a substantial benefit. Most of the drugs won't suit you. Psychopharmacology is all about trial and error.
Have you considered trimipramine? It has antipsychotic and antidepressive effects, but it is alas also an anti-histamine.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:23:40
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 0:11:04
"The right medications" often don't exist. I think it is more error than anything else. No I haven't even considered that because I value sex and I get depressed if I don't have it. (Even if it is just by myself).
> What you have to win? *If* you find the right medications, you can have a substantial benefit. Most of the drugs won't suit you. Psychopharmacology is all about trial and error.
>
> Have you considered trimipramine? It has antipsychotic and antidepressive effects, but it is alas also an anti-histamine.
>
> -undopaminergic
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:28:17
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:23:40
I don't have this unshakable belief in "the right medication". Not with the ones that are out right now. Please respect that.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:42:52
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:28:17
I believe in the least wrong medication. And I think that that is my regimen.
Posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 3:04:06
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:23:40
> "The right medications" often don't exist.
"Perfect" medications usually don't exist. My depression is more treatment-resistant than most, and I've still tried several drugs that helped, substantially, but not completely. And I have yet to try an unselective MAOI.
> I think it is more error than anything else.
Yes, it's more error than success, if you're treatment-resistant. All error? No, I think you just haven't had enough trial if that is the case. Even you seem to have found reason to take a few medications. There are people who have found less than you.
> No I haven't even considered that because I value sex and I get depressed if I don't have it. (Even if it is just by myself).
>Are you saying trimipramine has adverse effects on sexual function? News to me!
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 3:06:59
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 0:28:17
> I don't have this unshakable belief in "the right medication".
>Well, who has?
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:25:54
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 3:04:06
Are you taking them now? It may land you in the loony bin.
> I've still tried several drugs that helped, substantially, but not completely. And I have yet to try an unselective MAOI.
That is crazy.
> No, I think you just haven't had enough trial if that is the case. Even you seem to have found reason to take a few medications.
Found? The need to take them stems from previous medication.
There are people who have found less than you.
I am.
> Are you saying trimipramine has adverse effects on sexual function? News to me!
>
> -undopaminergic
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:33:26
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:25:54
I wasnt searching, so I havent found anything except the first drug I took: Nardil
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:35:44
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:33:26
What I have found is distress, stigma and humiliation.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:43:31
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:35:44
Back to topic please! I am not asking for new drugs here at all!
Posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 5:10:30
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:25:54
I don't want to come off as difficult, but do you know you are difficult to read when you're responding in reverse order? The convention most of us are used to is to quote first and then reply below; alternatively, to type your whole reply at the top and quote the whole message below.
> > I've still tried several drugs that helped, substantially, but not completely. And I have yet to try an unselective MAOI.
>
> Are you taking them now? It may land you in the loony bin.I'm taking the one I discovered most recently, trimipramine. I'm also on sulpiride, but that is pointless because it lost its stimulant effect. The others, well, no, but I certainly want to be on some of them, especially the combo methylphenidate+buprenorphine; as you can imagine, it's hard to get a prescription for these.
As for drugs that can get you hospitalised, there is memantine and another NMDA-antagonist, methoxetamine. Memantine feels great when at its best, but it makes you manic, and that doesn't end well.
> > No, I think you just haven't had enough trial if that is the case.
>
> That is crazy.Is it? Let's say you try every centrally active medication clinically available. That's hundreds. Do you really think none of them would help at all? I think that is only in theory.
> > Even you seem to have found reason to take a few medications.
>
> Found? The need to take them stems from previous medication.But you had a reason to try the previous medication, right? If I recall correctly, it even worked for you until it went sour.
> There are people who have found less than you.Certainly. There are people who resort to psychosurgery (deep brain stimulation). Many more kill themselves.
> > Are you saying trimipramine has adverse effects on sexual function? News to me!
> >
>
> I am.OK. There are numerous potential side effects of most medications. No-one gets all of them. But you know that.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 5:23:37
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 3:33:26
> I wasnt searching, so I havent found anything except the first drug I took: Nardil
>Right. I understand you regret it in retrospect, but at the time, you couldn't know what would happen further down the line, and it was a reasonable option. Fortunately, your experience is most unusual, and there are fewer people who get to try Nardil than there should be. I mean there are more people who die from not being given Nardil, than there are people who get psychosis from using it.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 7, 2021, at 5:24:29
In reply to Re: Neuroleptic weight gain dose dependend? Linearly?, posted by undopaminergic on January 7, 2021, at 5:10:30
> Do you really think none of them would help at all? I think that is only in theory.
No, I think you will take so much damage in the process that the helpful med (once and if you find it) will not make up for!
>
> But you had a reason to try the previous medication, right? If I recall correctly, it even worked for you until it went sour.I could have done extensive bloodwork and orthomolecular instead. It worked at a certain time for a certain symptom (depression). Overall it was devastating though.
> OK. There are numerous potential side effects of most medications. No-one gets all of them. But you know that.
I tried Nortriptyline and I asked my psychiatrist if the other Tricyclics kill sex, too, he said yes. I have researched TCAs that don't, but I decided not to take for other reasons.
Like I said, if it replaces Depression with something equally or more devastating, I am not interested. A med can "work" and still not help because it f*cks you up with other symptoms.
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