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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by myco on March 12, 2009, at 1:14:41
A repost of mine from above (thread: "Inhibition of SULF1A3 = increase NARDIL bioavail?")
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20090304/msgs/884466.html
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I know this is way to early but side effects were relatively hard. This is only my first dosing of Green Tea Extract with Nardil. Idea was/is to progress slowly over a number of weeks.
These are my first day observations using Green Tea Extract (300mg capsules with 50% EGCG; contains unknown amount of caffeine as well) combined with 125mg vitamin B6 (cofactor) in an attempt to augment/potentiate Nardil. EGCG (a natural decarboxylase inhibitor) is a compound in Green Tea Extract shown to inhibit a gut enzyme (SULT1A3) thus increasing bioavailability of some neuros (DA & SE) and, hopefully based on my theory to be tested, Nardil (similar in structure to DA). See posts above for explaination.
In support of this also, it has been shown that grapefruit juice (containing some similarly functioning compounds to green tea) potentiates the effects of Zoloft (sorry can't remember reference at the moment). So here we have the beginings of a lil study by myself (my dr would kill me for messing around with a maoi like this though without supervision lol) to use natural plant products to augment psych meds...a category (MAOI) that has never been tried (formally at least) this way before (to my knowledge)
Initial recording of experience:
8:50am - Two (2 X 300mg = 600mg total) Green Tea Extract (GTE) capsules taken on empty stomach (as suggested to increase bioavailability)
9:00am - Nardil (morning dose, 30mg, taken) with 125mg B6 tablet.
10:00am - starting to "not feel like myself" - mild headache coming on, don't feel awake (normally I do with only Nardil), somewhat stuffy or congested, missing that calm coolness that the morning dose of Nardil gives me. Drank two extra cups of Green Tea decaf (~10mg caffeine each).
11:00am - noon - I did eat chocolate so mabye having an effect on observations (my bad)
11:35am - headache still there (perhaps slightly worse), body aches, joint stiffness, definately moving slower than usual, beginning to get tired (unlike usual Nardil morning dose)
12:20pm - slight dizzyness (head rolling when eyes closed), inability to concentrate (unusual for Nardil), heavy feeling in chest (almost like forced breathing feeling), tiredness getting more intense (feel like going back to bed).
12:36pm - minor facial flushing/heat, headache turns to "fuzzyness" feeling, mild "twinges" or "blips" of sexual arousal
1:22pm - chest heavyness described earlier feels like it may be heart straining (not sure though - just wasnt comfy), no indication of increased heart rate
3:45pm - decided not to take additional dosage of GTE as planned with afternoon Nardil dose. Mild tinnitus, mild 'blips' of stimulation in my legs, concentration still poor, fuzzy headache persists, some feeling of 'ease' (mabye nardil coming on?), still very sleepy, feeling very "worn out"/not functional at all. perhaps a caffeine crash? (dunno)
5:30pm - still very tired, some of sides are easing, headache persists, still worn out, concentration and enthusiasm for the day is gone, will take a nap shortly = couldnt sleep though just layed there.
11:35pm...mild chronic headache remains...feeling better though.
I'm not sure on the role a heavy dose (although ive no idea what dose is in the caps) of caffeine has in these sides...certainly felt a heavy crash come on though but it started early. There was some signs that I recognize (at least I think) of increased dopamine - sleepyness does come from this initially for me and sexual arrousal. Some possible SE effects could relate to the sleepyness...although the decarboxylase inhibition would first build up 5htp not SE, to my understanding and L-dopa first before dopamine.Initial results here show that it may not be worth the trouble as this isnt a "comfy" augment as of yet (well only first day so I cant complain). I have a bad feeling about the chest issue but mabye I am, well I am lol, thinking about this to much. I so want to try again with a caffeine free GTE...will do friday. Also I want to lower the dose...related to this...i've no idea how much actual EGCG is in these products....i.e is 50% EGCG in a 300mg capsule equal to 150mg? Not sure...no response from the company via email.
To be continued....-----------------------
Posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2009, at 11:01:56
In reply to Initial observations of Green Tea Extract + Nardil, posted by myco on March 12, 2009, at 1:14:41
Myco I feel you should stop not safe to experiment especially with heavy duty meds and I'm assuming green tea extract isn't the same as the green tea you drink. Love Phillipa
Posted by myco on March 12, 2009, at 12:06:38
In reply to Re: Initial observations of Green Tea Extract + Nardil » myco, posted by Phillipa on March 12, 2009, at 11:01:56
Hi hun...I agree with you...stopping this is most likely what I will do as I dont "feel good" taking it...I think actually, now that i'm awake in the morning - mild depression and not as energetic, that the EGCG in the extract actually hindered/prevented proper metabolism/absorption of Nardil...I think this may be a "withdrawal" scenerio to some degree..plus that much purified caffeine can't be good for you on a maoi. This is nothing like a nice cup of green tea....its an extract of green tea that has a very high concentration of some of the compounds in the green tea leaf. No indication in the medical literature at all about potential interactions with a maoi though (to my knowledge)...I think I will report it? At least it's known here. I still am curious about the caffeine free though...but I think I wont.
thanks
myco> Myco I feel you should stop not safe to experiment especially with heavy duty meds and I'm assuming green tea extract isn't the same as the green tea you drink. Love Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on March 12, 2009, at 13:45:32
In reply to Re: Initial observations of Green Tea Extract + Nardil » Phillipa, posted by myco on March 12, 2009, at 12:06:38
i drink about that equivalent amount of EGCG a day (here is a good paper on tea content per servings http://www.matteleao.com.br/produtos/arquivos/Total%20phenol,%20catechin%20and%20caffeine%20contents%20of%20teas.pdf )...if you were taking 3k or something, it might be something to be concerned with, but if anything it should improve antidepressant response...only thing out of all the things its doing, the antiangiogenic activity might be unhelpful, but basiclaly it does lots of good stuff for the health
-d/r
Posted by myco on March 12, 2009, at 14:48:37
In reply to Re: Initial observations of Green Tea Extract + Nardil, posted by desolationrower on March 12, 2009, at 13:45:32
So none of that is a bad sign for mixing with maois? it certainly didnt feel good in any way really.
> i drink about that equivalent amount of EGCG a day (here is a good paper on tea content per servings http://www.matteleao.com.br/produtos/arquivos/Total%20phenol,%20catechin%20and%20caffeine%20contents%20of%20teas.pdf )...if you were taking 3k or something, it might be something to be concerned with, but if anything it should improve antidepressant response...only thing out of all the things its doing, the antiangiogenic activity might be unhelpful, but basiclaly it does lots of good stuff for the health
>
> -d/r
This is the end of the thread.
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