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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Amigan on April 11, 2008, at 3:25:39
Hi.
I have read some excellent reports on the combination of both aminoacids with Selegiline. My question is what are the differences between Phenylethylamine and Phenylalanine exprerience-wise? Which combination is feels more speedy, Acts longer, etc? What are the pros and cons of each? I want to try this combo for low motivation, fatigue and ADD, not depression.
I know that PLA is converted into PEA in the body. Does this mean that i can use PLA in case i can't obtain PEA and have similar effects?Also, does anyone knows a CHEAP, European (EU) source for these substances?
I do know that this forum doesn't allow sourcing for perscription drugs, but these are simple, Over-the-counter Aminoacids. So far, i was only able to find phenylalanine.
I'm well aware that there is a small risk of hypertension with this combo and i plan to proceed with caution.Thank you in advance.
Posted by undopaminergic on April 11, 2008, at 20:52:25
In reply to PEA or PLA with Selegiline??, posted by Amigan on April 11, 2008, at 3:25:39
> Hi.
> I have read some excellent reports on the combination of both aminoacids with Selegiline. My question is what are the differences between Phenylethylamine and Phenylalanine exprerience-wise? Which combination is feels more speedy, Acts longer, etc? What are the pros and cons of each? I want to try this combo for low motivation, fatigue and ADD, not depression.
> I know that PLA is converted into PEA in the body. Does this mean that i can use PLA in case i can't obtain PEA and have similar effects?
>Not in my experience - a few grams of either L-phenylalanine (LPA) or D,L-phenylalanine (DLPA) seemed to have little effect for me. However, success has been reported by others. Taking the amino acid on an empty stomach and with pyridoxine (vitamin B6) should help maximise the effect.
Phenylethylamine (PEA) is decarboxylated phenylalanine, and hence not an amino-acid - in its pure freebase form, it's an oily liquid that is strongly alkaline and has a fishy smell (see PIHKAL and the Merck Index for some more details). In practice, you will almost cetainly be working with the hydrochloride salt, which is a stable white solid that is freely soluble in water.
PEA, which occurs as an alkaloid in cocoa, has been called the chocolate amphetamine, and the name is appropriate if (and only if) it's taken under potent inhibition of MAO-B, which is the reason why it hasn't been banned yet. In other words, under the circumstance of minimal MAO-B activity, PEA should be treated with the same respect as amphetamines. The dose required for potent effects is in the range 10-75 mg according to my data, and rather frequent dosing will be required due to the short half-life (in the case of PEA, an extended release formulation really would be a benefit - more so than for the other stimulants in common use).
> Also, does anyone knows a CHEAP, European (EU) source for these substances?
>Not unless you buy from chemical suppliers. That was the only choice back when I used PEA. (The containers were labelled with cautions like "for laboratory use only" and "harmful if swallowed".)
You can also prepare PEA from phenylalanine with only a fairly basic level of chemical expertise - the instructions can be found on the web.
>
> I'm well aware that there is a small risk of hypertension with this combo and i plan to proceed with caution.
>Although the most striking aspect of my first experience with PEA was the extreme calmness of the mind, other effects were cold extremities (especially fingers) and a considerable drop in heart rate - down to about 60 beats per minute or less - a good demonstration of the baroreflex, which reduces heart rate to compensate for the hypertensive effect of vasoconstriction resulting from noradrenaline released by PEA. I estimate the systolic pressure to about 160-180 mmHg (the normal level is 120-130 or so), which is by no means a crisis, but clearly highlights the potency of PEA - also note that it happened with fairly modest quantities in the range 10-25 mg. Fortunately, tolerance to the hypertensive effect develops - at least in my case. Of course, tolerance develops to many of the benefits too.
I may possibly have a pathologically low dopamine/noradrenaline ratio and ëxcessive dopamine beta-hydroxylase (DBH) activity, and others may be less sensitive to noradrenergic side-effects than I am. It may be interesting to test the effects of a alpha2-agonist like guanfacine, as it might improve the ratio in favour of dopamine, and seems to be the next best thing after DBH-inhibitors, which aren't clinically available.
Posted by Jimmyboy on April 11, 2008, at 22:21:29
In reply to Re: PEA or PLA with Selegiline??, posted by undopaminergic on April 11, 2008, at 20:52:25
I tried both PEA hydrochloride powder and DLPA while I was taking low dose selegiline. I actually had pretty good success taking DLPA+ Selegiline and getting a decent amount of cardio exercise. This helped pull me out of a pretty long depression I had experienced a few years back. When I quit exercising and staying out late drinking after I felt I was " cured" , things predictably started going downhill...
- as a side note, the D- Phenylalanine supposedly keeps your endorphins ( from exercising) around longer, thats why I added exercise to the mix, I think it actually works b/c this is the only time I have really enjoyed and looked forward to exercising in my whole life. I would reccommend trying this.PEA and selegiline , on the other hand was horrible for me. Way to speedy, just a tiny amount of the disgusting fishy tasing powder would cause extreme agitation, headaches, and major anxiety. Not pleasant at all for me. I wouldn;t reccommend that combo, I think it can be pretty dangerous , blood pressure-wise also.
Just my experiences.
Good luckJB
Posted by Amigan on April 12, 2008, at 7:16:08
In reply to Re: PEA or PLA with Selegiline??, posted by undopaminergic on April 11, 2008, at 20:52:25
Thank you for your informative post.
> > Hi.
> > I have read some excellent reports on the combination of both aminoacids with Selegiline. My question is what are the differences between Phenylethylamine and Phenylalanine exprerience-wise? Which combination is feels more speedy, Acts longer, etc? What are the pros and cons of each? I want to try this combo for low motivation, fatigue and ADD, not depression.
> > I know that PLA is converted into PEA in the body. Does this mean that i can use PLA in case i can't obtain PEA and have similar effects?
> >
>
> Not in my experience - a few grams of either L-phenylalanine (LPA) or D,L-phenylalanine (DLPA) seemed to have little effect for me. However, success has been reported by others. Taking the amino acid on an empty stomach and with pyridoxine (vitamin B6) should help maximise the effect.
>
> Phenylethylamine (PEA) is decarboxylated phenylalanine, and hence not an amino-acid - in its pure freebase form, it's an oily liquid that is strongly alkaline and has a fishy smell (see PIHKAL and the Merck Index for some more details). In practice, you will almost cetainly be working with the hydrochloride salt, which is a stable white solid that is freely soluble in water.Right. I read that it is a monoamine.
> PEA, which occurs as an alkaloid in cocoa, has been called the chocolate amphetamine, and the name is appropriate if (and only if) it's taken under potent inhibition of MAO-B, which is the reason why it hasn't been banned yet. In other words, under the circumstance of minimal MAO-B activity, PEA should be treated with the same respect as amphetamines. The dose required for potent effects is in the range 10-75 mg according to my data, and rather frequent dosing will be required due to the short half-life (in the case of PEA, an extended release formulation really would be a benefit - more so than for the other stimulants in common use).I see. Interestingly, eating chocolate or drinking 3 cups of hot cocoa while taking Selegiline, didn't have much effect on me. While drinking hot milk i notice a gentle activation and increased heart beat. I read that milk is phenylalanine-rich, although i can't be sure that it was phenylalanine responsible for this.
> > Also, does anyone knows a CHEAP, European (EU) source for these substances?
> >
>
> Not unless you buy from chemical suppliers. That was the only choice back when I used PEA. (The containers were labelled with cautions like "for laboratory use only" and "harmful if swallowed".)
>
> You can also prepare PEA from phenylalanine with only a fairly basic level of chemical expertise - the instructions can be found on the web.Ok.
> >
> > I'm well aware that there is a small risk of hypertension with this combo and i plan to proceed with caution.
> >
>
> Although the most striking aspect of my first experience with PEA was the extreme calmness of the mind, other effects were cold extremities (especially fingers) and a considerable drop in heart rate - down to about 60 beats per minute or less - a good demonstration of the baroreflex, which reduces heart rate to compensate for the hypertensive effect of vasoconstriction resulting from noradrenaline released by PEA. I estimate the systolic pressure to about 160-180 mmHg (the normal level is 120-130 or so), which is by no means a crisis, but clearly highlights the potency of PEA - also note that it happened with fairly modest quantities in the range 10-25 mg. Fortunately, tolerance to the hypertensive effect develops - at least in my case. Of course, tolerance develops to many of the benefits too.
>
> I may possibly have a pathologically low dopamine/noradrenaline ratio and ëxcessive dopamine beta-hydroxylase (DBH) activity, and others may be less sensitive to noradrenergic side-effects than I am. It may be interesting to test the effects of a alpha2-agonist like guanfacine, as it might improve the ratio in favour of dopamine, and seems to be the next best thing after DBH-inhibitors, which aren't clinically available.If only Carbidopa was able to cross the BBB..
Posted by Amigan on April 12, 2008, at 7:18:34
In reply to Re: PEA or PLA with Selegiline??, posted by Jimmyboy on April 11, 2008, at 22:21:29
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Posted by undopaminergic on April 12, 2008, at 17:53:56
In reply to Re: PEA or PLA with Selegiline?? » undopaminergic, posted by Amigan on April 12, 2008, at 7:16:08
>
> I see. Interestingly, eating chocolate or drinking 3 cups of hot cocoa while taking Selegiline, didn't have much effect on me. While drinking hot milk i notice a gentle activation and increased heart beat. I read that milk is phenylalanine-rich, although i can't be sure that it was phenylalanine responsible for this.
>I haven't noticed anything from cocoa either, but some people get reactions even with low doses (less than 5 mg/day) of selegiline. Also, some people taking non-selective MAOIs have had hypertensive reactions from dark chocolate.
Some people can easily get too much central dopaminergic stimulation, with paranoia, anxiety, psychosis and other unpleasant reactions as a result. You're probably not one of them, but it's nevertheless a good idea to test whether phenylalanine (PA) is sufficicent before moving on to PEA. PA should be smoother and longer lasting, and can also help replenish DA (and NA) via conversion to tyrosine (and hence L-dopa), but excessive PA can also competitively inhibit tyrosine hydroxylation. The D-isomer of PA cannot be converted to tyrosine, so more of it will be metabolised to PEA.
> >
> > I may possibly have a pathologically low dopamine/noradrenaline ratio and ëxcessive dopamine beta-hydroxylase (DBH) activity, and others may be less sensitive to noradrenergic side-effects than I am. It may be interesting to test the effects of a alpha2-agonist like guanfacine, as it might improve the ratio in favour of dopamine, and seems to be the next best thing after DBH-inhibitors, which aren't clinically available.
>
> If only Carbidopa was able to cross the BBB..Excuse me? Carbidopa is primarily useful *because* it doesn't cross the BBB. As a peripheral inhibitor of aromatic amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) it helps greater amounts of L-dopa and 5-HTP (and other aromatic amino acids) cross the BBB before they are decarboxylated to dopamine and serotonin, which can't cross the BBB and hence have no CNS effect and furthermore cause unpleasant side effects like nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, etc.
DBH converts dopamine to noradrenaline, and can be inhibited with research compounds like nepicastat and fusaric acid (while these may be worth trying, there are higher risks of unknown and potentially serious side effects).
I actually tried L-dopa with a peripheral AADC inhibitor (benserazide), but it didn't seem to work, even with methylphenidate and selegiline, and with amisulpride there seemed to be increased side effects like muscle stiffness. I had expected that the stimulant effect of methylphenidate would be potentiated, but little or no such effects were noted.
Posted by Amigan on April 12, 2008, at 19:15:06
In reply to Re: PEA or PLA with Selegiline??, posted by undopaminergic on April 12, 2008, at 17:53:56
> > > I may possibly have a pathologically low dopamine/noradrenaline ratio and ëxcessive dopamine beta-hydroxylase (DBH) activity, and others may be less sensitive to noradrenergic side-effects than I am. It may be interesting to test the effects of a alpha2-agonist like guanfacine, as it might improve the ratio in favour of dopamine, and seems to be the next best thing after DBH-inhibitors, which aren't clinically available.
> >
> > If only Carbidopa was able to cross the BBB..
>
> Excuse me? Carbidopa is primarily useful *because* it doesn't cross the BBB. As a peripheral inhibitor of aromatic amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) it helps greater amounts of L-dopa and 5-HTP (and other aromatic amino acids) cross the BBB before they are decarboxylated to dopamine and serotonin, which can't cross the BBB and hence have no CNS effect and furthermore cause unpleasant side effects like nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, etc.I guess i wasn't thinking straight when i posted it. :-) My thought was that if it would be able to pass the BBB it would help the l-dopa which derives from the metabolism of PA/PEA to convert into dopamine inside the brain, more easily and hence improve your dopamine/NE ratio. Anyway, It doesn't make much sense now that i reconsider it...
> DBH converts dopamine to noradrenaline, and can be inhibited with research compounds like nepicastat and fusaric acid (while these may be worth trying, there are higher risks of unknown and potentially serious side effects).
>
> I actually tried L-dopa with a peripheral AADC inhibitor (benserazide), but it didn't seem to work, even with methylphenidate and selegiline, and with amisulpride there seemed to be increased side effects like muscle stiffness. I had expected that the stimulant effect of methylphenidate would be potentiated, but little or no such effects were noted.I have also tried l-dopa+Benseraside without any other meds, just coffee and i got only peripheral side effects: Nausea, vomiting and perhaps a small change in my muscle tone.
This is the end of the thread.
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