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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Don_Bristol on April 11, 2006, at 22:59:25
Am on 50mg Parnate. It's not a large dose but if I take the Parnate a bit late in the day and that night if I forget to take my sleeping tabs then I will stay up through the night. My other meds do not seem to be causing this.
OK so I am not 101% alert during the night but I am surprisingly untired. I recall there's an inconclusive debate about the relationship between Parnate to amphetamine.
Subjectively I feel untired throughout the whole night, I do not get dressed for bed nor do lie on the bed or on anything else to get some sleep. I just carry on for the whole night.
During the following day I may get 2, 3, or 4 hours sleep at some point. It's not much sleep for someone who usually sleeps about 7 to 7.5 hours a night. And I can repeat this for several nights in a row. In fact I can go for a few weeks like this.
The QUESTION to you all is ... how long can one go with such reduced sleep without problems? It seems intuitively sensible that after a while the tiredness is going to affect me. Slow my decision making. Affect co-ordination. All that sort of thing. But subjectively I do not feel I am awfully low in functioning in those areas.
Having the extra time is very useful and I would like to use those nighttime hours.
If I were to get a regular 4 hours sleep a night on this regime then I figure I would be able to continue almost indefinitely. Surely this can't be right? My body seems designed for the 7 to 7.5 hours I used to get until recently and now hours a night seems like a luxury compared to what I do get. One 11 day period saw me get only 21 hours sleep - so that an average of less than 2 hours in 24.
Thought please guys.
Posted by mogger on April 11, 2006, at 23:21:07
In reply to Managing with very reduced sleep (from Parnate), posted by Don_Bristol on April 11, 2006, at 22:59:25
Have you thought about trying Seroquel? My sister is on Selegiline which also is activating but Seroquel helps her sleep at night.
mogger
Posted by JaclinHyde on April 12, 2006, at 1:40:26
In reply to Re: Managing with very reduced sleep (from Parnate), posted by mogger on April 11, 2006, at 23:21:07
Personally I cannot stand Seroquel. The next day I feel like crap all day long. I have pulled many an all nighter myself on Parnate. Here are my suggestions...
1) Take your last dose earlier so that it doesn't interfer with your sleep.
2) Ask your doctor for either Ambien CR or Lunesta. Ambien CR lasts through the night, Lunesta sometimes wears off in the middle of the night.
3) A dose of Klonopin is also a great help when combined with Ambien or Lunesta. You get off to sleep faster and then the Ambien/Lunesta kicks in.These are just my opinions, ymmv :-)
H
Posted by tygereyes on April 12, 2006, at 1:59:06
In reply to Re: Managing with very reduced sleep (from Parnate), posted by JaclinHyde on April 12, 2006, at 1:40:26
My sleep experience:
If I took Parnate after 2:00 p.m. I'd be up all night. One night, I panicked because I had forgotten to take my dose at the proper time so I took 100 mg Topamax, 6.5 mg Ambien CR, 10 mg Ambien, 50 mg Seroquel - and I was STILL awake all night. Drugged and delerious, but awake.
Try to split the doses up 20 mg and 20 mg at a time. I used to take 20 mg at 8 am and 20 mg from 10 am - 12 pm. Unfortunately, you will get the "crash" effect but this becomes less profound as your body becomes accustomed to the medicine.
So that's my first piece of advice.
Then I realized that I had both problems staying AND falling asleep. So I started taking Ambien to fall asleep and Ambien CR to stay asleep. Mostly, this worked. I had to stop taking it when I started binge-eating on Ambien, though.
I was taking 80 mg of Parnate (120 was my absolute highest dose but the side effects were just too profound) and then lowered it to 40 - now I'm trying to get off of it, taking it erratically, and I take 25 mg Seroquel for sleep and 75 mg Topamax. This seems to work some nights but not others. I'm thinking about going back to Ambien CR, which never caused me to binge, as long as I have the other two to help me fall asleep initially.
I've always had problems with insomnia but I never thought all-nighters would become such a regular occurrence.
My advice when you realize it's really late and there's no way you're going to sleep:
Don't panic. This is number one. I used to panic and take as many pills as I could to try and induce sleep. This rarely worked and would leave me drugged and disoriented and sometimes I'd fall asleep six hours later and have to call in sick to work. Not a good idea. Read a good book, watch a movie, stay calm.
Take your next a.m. dose as early as possible. WITH caffeine. (Yes, I know caffeine is contraindicated. But I have always been a heavy caffeine drinker and as long as my last cup was before 2 p.m., it didn't influence my sleep. I have never had a hypertensive crisis due to caffeine and I LOVE my sugar free Red Bulls). Anyway, this will provide the speed-like kick to get you through the morning.
Go to sleep early, but not too early. A few hours earlier than usual, to make up for the sleep you lost the night before. Try to get back on a regular sleep schedule.
And don't ever take Benadryl - Parnate gave me akathisia and Benadryl made it a million and a half times worse. It was practically an out of body experience. I wanted to jump out of my skin.
Posted by TylerJ on April 12, 2006, at 11:33:02
In reply to Managing with very reduced sleep (from Parnate), posted by Don_Bristol on April 11, 2006, at 22:59:25
> Am on 50mg Parnate. It's not a large dose but if I take the Parnate a bit late in the day and that night if I forget to take my sleeping tabs then I will stay up through the night. My other meds do not seem to be causing this.
>
> OK so I am not 101% alert during the night but I am surprisingly untired. I recall there's an inconclusive debate about the relationship between Parnate to amphetamine.
>
> Subjectively I feel untired throughout the whole night, I do not get dressed for bed nor do lie on the bed or on anything else to get some sleep. I just carry on for the whole night.
>
> During the following day I may get 2, 3, or 4 hours sleep at some point. It's not much sleep for someone who usually sleeps about 7 to 7.5 hours a night. And I can repeat this for several nights in a row. In fact I can go for a few weeks like this.
>
> The QUESTION to you all is ... how long can one go with such reduced sleep without problems? It seems intuitively sensible that after a while the tiredness is going to affect me. Slow my decision making. Affect co-ordination. All that sort of thing. But subjectively I do not feel I am awfully low in functioning in those areas.
>
> Having the extra time is very useful and I would like to use those nighttime hours.
>
> If I were to get a regular 4 hours sleep a night on this regime then I figure I would be able to continue almost indefinitely. Surely this can't be right? My body seems designed for the 7 to 7.5 hours I used to get until recently and now hours a night seems like a luxury compared to what I do get. One 11 day period saw me get only 21 hours sleep - so that an average of less than 2 hours in 24.
>
> Thought please guys.FIRST AND FOREMOST...THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, WHAT WORKS FOR ME.
You need to get into a routine, right now it's sounds like your "routine" is pretty chaotic. I take 150mgs. of Parnate a day and sleep like a baby. I never take a dose later than 2-2:30 pm. I take 100 at 7:00, 30 at noon, and 20 at 2-2:30, and feel darn good all day long.
For me Trazodone, which is used commonly by pdocs for maoi induced insomnia, works great. But you have to find the right dose and for awhile it may cause some morning drowsiness. I take 150 mgs Trazodone one hour before i go to bed and i fall asleep quickly, stay asleep and awaken around 7:00 am, feeling refreshed-no hangover, no tiredness. But, it does take awhile, it used to make me tired in the morning, but for me that "side-effect" has vanished. A good solid routine is important to a healthy sleep pattern. Also, it sounds odd, but higher dose Parnate (for me) has less side-effects, including reduced insomnia..weird, but true.
Tyler
Posted by Don_Bristol on April 12, 2006, at 19:08:32
In reply to Re: Managing with very reduced sleep (from Parnate), posted by mogger on April 11, 2006, at 23:21:07
> Have you thought about trying Seroquel? My sister is on Selegiline which also is activating but Seroquel helps her sleep at night.
> moggerHi Mogger. I have not tried seroquel but I do have some olanzapine which I must try soon. I am told it can b sedating.
However I am not sure I want to be sedated. I am not sure I want to sleep a lot if there is no real need.
Or maybe I am living in a fool's paradise and my lack of true sleep will come back to trouble me?
Posted by tessellated on April 16, 2006, at 9:25:21
In reply to Re: Managing with very reduced sleep (from Parnate), posted by Don_Bristol on April 12, 2006, at 19:08:32
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060310/msgs/619892.html
i posted a couple weeks ago about the same issue.
the question is mostly just how adverse is the reduction of sleep to you? i've read that sleep deprivation can cause numerous problems, but all of these seem to be stress related.
if your job doesn't demand the normal regular sleep cycle, and you are not noticing health/mental problems than WTF?
I usually push about 36hour awake 12 hours asleep as that way i stay on cycle with the world, minus one night of sleep.
I really wish someone could find more info on the subject.
I know the military has to have done tons of studies..8ed
the UK had a sleep deprivation reality gameshow:shattered. everyone went psychotic around 50hrs and the winner took $100K for 176hours of no sleep.
This is the end of the thread.
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