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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 3 of 3. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by McPac on September 4, 2003, at 19:00:34
Lar,
As I told you previously, I'm taking SJW (I also take 30 mg of Remeron a day).
I take the SJW 450mg/2x a day (total 900 mg/day).
Since I'm already taking the SJW, but still don't feel too good, I guess I'll stay w/ that and raise the dose to 3 a day (1350 mg/day).
However, I was talking with Ame and I was telling him how the ssri's work GREAT for my problems---depression/ocd/anxiety/insomnia (but they also cause terrible anger/irritability! Doc Amen says that is usually a temporal lobe issue...I checked out his book's checklist and I DO have many of the temporal lobe symptoms...I really believe that that is the problem w/ the ssri's). Anyway, I'm OFF all ssri's right now (the terrible anger/irrit problem, right on cue, has also left...THAT is good!....but I don't feel too good just on this weak Remeron....the serotonergic meds always worked.....meds that have weak serotonergic effects work only somewhat......meds with no serotonergic effect do nothing for my depression/ocd......I've always responded extremely well to the serotonergic meds......so my dilemma is this: trying to find SOMETHING that, when combined w/ the weak Remeron (it's weak compared to the ssri's), will give me the serotonergic boost that I need. Now, the Amester mentioned that since the ssri's worked so well for me, that he would recommend tryptophan or 5htp. I have read so much contradictory crap about tryptophan and 5htp that I don't know what to think. They would SEEM to be the perfect recommendations since Tryptophan>>>>5HTP>>>>>>>>Serotonin. But all the contradictory crap that I read....question: Do they convert well; when you put a tryptophan or 5htp supp in your mouth, does enough of that get converted to serotonin in the brain? Does one of them, the tryptophan or the 5htp, work better than the other, either because of conversion reasons or for other reasons? What's funny is that these supps have been around for plenty long enough that the info. should be clear and easily understandable rather than vague and contradictory. (Just like w/ SJW---has been used forever by tons of people yet because some drug company doesn't own it, all you find are contradictory articles, as if it's only been used for 2 weeks, lol. If it were Pfizer's brand new drug, you'd see commercials tonight stating how it definitely would help!) Now I realize that tryptophan or 5htp may not help many folks...that may not be what they need. But don't they seem like logical choices for me to try? But....is it okay to combine SJW with either of these two supps? I read that SJW has MAOI-like properties....is that true? Well, for now I'll probably just stick with the SJW and titrate that upwards and see how that goes. But I did want your opinion of the tryptophan and 5htp (or any other supps that would boost serotonergic activity). Thank you so much Lar....as always, MUCH appreciated! Didn't have a chance to proofread this Lar, gotta run, take care!
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 9:26:07
In reply to Larry Hoover, posted by McPac on September 4, 2003, at 19:00:34
> Lar,
> As I told you previously, I'm taking SJW (I also take 30 mg of Remeron a day).
> I take the SJW 450mg/2x a day (total 900 mg/day).Did you check to see if the brand you're using is on lists of recommended products? Many SJW products fail to provide the labelled ingredients at the potency described. In other words, you may not be getting what you paid for.
http://www.consumerlab.com/results/sjw.asp
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/hypericum.html
(table at bottom of page)German pharmaceutical grade products are one way to ensure quality. The extract identified in the scientific literature as WS 5572, is marketed as Neuroplant in Germany, and as Perika (or PerikaT), and Movana (or MovanaT), in the United States. The extract known as LI 160 in the literature, is marketed in Germany as Jarsin 300, and is sold as Kira in the U.S.
Here's a link to a reliability study of these extracts:
http://www.aphanet.org/JAPhA/julyaug01pdfs/wurglics%20p560_566.pdf
> Since I'm already taking the SJW, but still don't feel too good, I guess I'll stay w/ that and raise the dose to 3 a day (1350 mg/day).Or change products?
>Tryptophan>>>>5HTP>>>>>>>>Serotonin. But all the contradictory crap that I read....question: Do they convert well; when you put a tryptophan or 5htp supp in your mouth, does enough of that get converted to serotonin in the brain?
Tryptophan used to be available in health food stores, and was one of the most-used natural products. Then, contaminated product made some people really sick. I've got to believe that tryprophan was working for people, or it would not have been so popular.
You want to try tryptophan, it's probably safer than 5-HTP. The latter is not normally found in the blood in any concentration, and it will be converted to serotonin in places it doesn't belong. That may or may not be bad for you. <shrug>
> Does one of them, the tryptophan or the 5htp, work better than the other, either because of conversion reasons or for other reasons?
The conversion of tryptophan to 5-HTP is the rate-limiting step in the formation of serotonin. It is slow, and highly regulated. The second step, from 5-HTP to serotonin, is virtually instantaneous. Compare dose recommendations for the two substances.
By taking 5-HTP, you bypass your body's regulatory systems. I can guarantee you that 5-HTP will turn to serotonin, but whether it will do so the way your body would have done it is not clear. Tryptophan, on the other hand, will be converted to serotonin when and where it is needed, in the amount that is needed (providing that the enzymes are functioning normally, etc.).
> What's funny is that these supps have been around for plenty long enough that the info. should be clear and easily understandable rather than vague and contradictory.
I don't know what contradictory evidence you're referring to. It all makes sense to me. <wink>
> (Just like w/ SJW---has been used forever by tons of people yet because some drug company doesn't own it, all you find are contradictory articles, as if it's only been used for 2 weeks, lol. If it were Pfizer's brand new drug, you'd see commercials tonight stating how it definitely would help!)
Actually, there is active suppression of Hypericum by drug companies. I could give you a very long trashing of the published study that "proved" that SJW doesn't work (the article posted in JAMA). It was biased, selective, used inappropriate statistical measures, and failed to disclose that the researchers, and all funding, were paid for by the manufacturer of sertraline. Moreover, the drug company had bought the herb supplier, and withdrew all Hypericum products at the same time as it released the flawed study.
> Now I realize that tryptophan or 5htp may not help many folks...that may not be what they need. But don't they seem like logical choices for me to try?
One thing at a time, would be my recommendation.
> But....is it okay to combine SJW with either of these two supps?
Yes, with care.
> I read that SJW has MAOI-like properties....is that true?
Yes, but they are quite mild. There are now eight different antidepressant mechanisms identified for SJW, and at least two of them have never before been described with respect to antidepressant activity.
> Well, for now I'll probably just stick with the SJW and titrate that upwards and see how that goes.
Check the quality of your product.
> But I did want your opinion of the tryptophan and 5htp (or any other supps that would boost serotonergic activity). Thank you so much Lar....as always, MUCH appreciated! Didn't have a chance to proofread this Lar, gotta run, take care!
No problem.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 10:08:16
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 9:26:07
> Did you check to see if the brand you're using is on lists of recommended products? Many SJW products fail to provide the labelled ingredients at the potency described...
Sorry to intrude, but I'd like to redirect discussion of alternative treatments to the new Psycho-Babble Alternative board. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/257255.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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