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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 0:42:33
This topic might go outside the region of this forum,but sometimes you have to go outside in loking for all valid therapies to fight depression and other mood orders.
I will preface this by saying my stance on anabolic/androgenic steroids can be read on my other testosterone posts.I am in support of Hormone Replacement Therapy and the use of steroids in some cases and have a huge problem with the negative media stories.There are some links I posted that validate the findings of testostorone in the fighting of depression,loss of libido,it may help fight degenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and may have anti-aging effects.There are no conclusive studies showing Steroids,at moderate doses to give cancer,heart attacks,so-called roid rage and all the other negative things people associate with them.I have spent a period of 4 different times on certain ones for the last 2 years.I have suffered no ill effects and feel it helped cure my depression,panic disorder and social phobia while on.
Now...My rantings.....
In 1990,without fulfilling one single solitary requirement with credible science that the Attorney General uses to schedule a drug,Congress voted to add anabolic/androgenic steroids to a schedule 3 of the DEA's list of controlled substances.In the state of New York,it is on schedule 2 list.For those that don't know here is a quick rundown of some scheduled drugs.
Schedule-1:pcp,heroin,mdma,ghb,mescaline
Schedule-2:cocaine,crack,morphine,crank,oxycontin,seconal,doriden and a host of narcotics.
Schedule-3:Codiene,vicodin,lsd and some barbituates
Schedule-4:Benzodiazepine's,stadol,torbugesic(both very potent,addictive pain kilers)darvocet,placidyl,miltown and rufies( one of the date rape drugs)Now there is no credible science whatsoever that proves Anabolics satisfy the Attorney General's requirement to scedule a drug.Not one.Not cancer,roid-rage,addiction or abuse potential.There is no proof any of these are at the fault of steroids.Imagine being in New york and being prosecuted the same as someone on crack,cocaine,morphine,crank,speed,oxycontin,seconal etc.Remember steroids are a hormone equal to estrogen.Imagine(if reversed) having birth control pills and being put in with the crack and meth addicts.Now steroids give no quick high's,they have no abuse potential,no addiction potential,overdosing is not even close to reality w/injectables.It's like geting your blood drawn.You are the same before and after.There is no"high" it's exactly the same effects you get taking a birth control pill....nothing.Try and have an open mind and realize the craziness of this scheduling.Even if your totally against steroids.It comes no where near the dangers of any of the drugs on schedule 2 in New York.If you think so,please do more research.Now since most of us don't live in NEW York let's look at the other scheduling.It is in the same category with...
-LSD....this is a joke.Steroids have no mind altering potential at all.LSD is very dangerous and has been known not for addiction but for it's
possible onset on psychosis,panic attacks,severe derealization(which people wil have to fight their whole lives) and deaths related to hallucinations(which is why people use LSD)-Codiene and vicodin,some barbituates.These are severely abused and the addiction to them is all too real.I,personally have seen people's lives ruined because of these.Go to a rehab center and you will see what I mean.Every think you'll see anyone in a rehab unit for use of Testosterone? I don't think so....
Schedule 4....
These most of us are familiar with and carries a LESSER sentence than steroids.-Benzo's-Although they are needed and have helped people the addiction potential is VERY real.Alot of people(not all) have an impossible time getting off of these. I won't say more as I'm sure most of you know the problems of benzo's.I have seen Xanax used as a rec drug to get"high" with numerous times.NOTE:remember steroids give no high.
-Torbugesic-a drug I feel has fallen through the cracks.It's a painkiller that is very powerful and addictive.Its known as "cloud 9"-Rohypnol or rufies-This was known as the first date rape drug.
-Placidyl,Miltown-These were the older anti- anxiety drugs.They have destroyed tons of lives,maybe some you know.They are addictive and lethal in overdoses.Now for Legal things...
Maybe the Attorney General should pay close attention to Alcohol and tobacco to schedule.How many lives do you know affected by these 2? Alcohol is legal and steroids up there with Crack and Vicodin....crazy!
Alcohol has created tons of addicts,fights,rapes,murders,drunk driving(leading to deaths)alcohol poisoning,suicides even little things like a drunk husband cheating on his wife ruining a marriage,I dont have to go into all the specifics but alcohol is a problem for adults and kids.Everyone knows the effects of alcohol and it's legal but using steroids to treat depression or enhace your body is a felony!!!!
You can get a nose-job,breast implants,tummy tuck,change your sex,smoke,drink,buy porn but you can't use steroids.anyone can go to a surgeon,give them your cash to augmment your body subjecting it to general anesthesia,complications and sometimes death.A man can take estrogen shots with no jail time But to enhance your body with steroids is a felony.
Some researchers at Harvard and John Hopkins estimate more than 50% of HIV positive people need hormone replacement therapy to support overall health.If the overweight,diabetic out of shape congress,and the media that creates negative biased stories to scare America would stop maybe we can see the good in the use of steroids.It has shown to help fight depression,give a libido,some even think it has an anti-aging effect.We know it affects certain neurotransmitters(serotonin,ne,dopamine) in the brains reward system.It may also protect the brain from diseases like Alzheimer's.
Studies have shown men with low levels of Testosterone tend to be depressed and more angry than men with higher levels who are actually calmer.We need studies to find out more but it won't happen as long as steroids are portrayed so negatively in the media.
people have been taking steroids for more than 40 years now.Where is the landslide of heart attacks and cancer deaths? Shouldn't athletes be dropping like flies? What about body builder's? Arnold is still going strong.Where's all the cancer and heart attacks and roid rage in the news? There are an estimated 17 million users. How many crimes are committed by bodybuilders in the news?
Where's all the studies that warrant it a schedule 3 or 2 class drugs in New York? The law has prevented important research on hormone therapy for men,supplementing the aging man and patients with AIDS.There's no addiction,no quick highs,no real threat to society.So what right do law makers have to ban a drug that affects nobody but the user?The fight against mood disorders have been rough.
From Valium to Xanax addiction.Weve heard reports of Prozac and suicide,Paxil and a crazy withdrawl syndrome.Is Ritalin good for kids? Is Clozaril a miracle drug for schizophrenia or one that turns a person into a compliant zombie? We hear about the deaths from Desipramine and Lamictal liver failure.Ssri sexual dysfunction to Tca's blood levels and overdosing.From Lithium to ECT.How many lives were ruined from old anti-psychotics? Tardive dyskinesia to NMS.It's been a long hard road and anything to aid the fight should not be overlooked.
Posted by jerrympls on July 31, 2003, at 2:21:47
In reply to Last thoughts on Testosterone and Scheduled drugs, posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 0:42:33
I've been on Testosterone replacement for about 5 months now. partly because of some unsually low blood levels and partly to help with depression. I can't understand why it's a scheduled drug - it does nothing - I mean I can't feel any "high" or anything and I certainly don't crave it. I use the Androgel everyday. I think it's helped - but certainly has not been a cure-all for my depression. but I agree - it's ridiculous that the media has made it out to be such a terrible thing.
My two cents
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 5:05:32
In reply to Re: Last thoughts on Testosterone and Scheduled dr, posted by jerrympls on July 31, 2003, at 2:21:47
I've been on Testosterone replacement for about 5 months now. partly because of some unsually low blood levels and partly to help with depression. I can't understand why it's a scheduled drug - it does nothing - I mean I can't feel any "high" or anything and I certainly don't crave it. I use the Androgel everyday. I think it's helped - but certainly has not been a cure-all for my depression. but I agree - it's ridiculous that the media has made it out to be such a terrible thing.
My two cents
>>>>Thanks for responding.Some of the dea's scheduled drugs are attachted in the links.
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/collins/wrong-prescription.htmhttp://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/new/commonknow.html
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 12:00:50
In reply to Re: Last thoughts on Testosterone and Scheduled dr, posted by jerrympls on July 31, 2003, at 2:21:47
My fiernd with AIDS says he gets a real rush
for a day or so after an injection of T.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 31, 2003, at 16:09:36
In reply to Last thoughts on Testosterone and Scheduled drugs, posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 0:42:33
> This topic might go outside the region of this forum,but sometimes you have to go outside in loking for all valid therapies to fight depression and other mood orders.
>
>John Henry, Im with you man. I personally would have gone thru a formal endocrinologist or internist to get the testosterone, but you evidently "discovered" by serendipity what truly works for you. I think the association of anabolic steroids with controlled substances goes back to the public's perception of steroids. That the perception is they are used as shortcuts, among our nation's lazy youth to build athletic or bodybuilding prowess. Most people...the average person on the street doesnt think of testosterone as a unique and effective way for an over thirty guy who is disabled from severe refractory depression to get out of it. Very very few people think of testosterone in those terms. Maybe a handful of psychiatrists do, a few internal medicine doctors do, some endocrinologists do. But overall, youre a victim of the past abuses of anabolic steroids.
I would strongly encourage you to get testosterone legally, with your family doctor or some other competent medical professional. I didnt read all your posts, maybe you have already done this I dont know. But I hope you go legit with this one in the future if you havent already gone legit with it. Cause it can come back to whack you if you keep it in the gym.
If you are interested, there is a psychiatrist at Columbia psychiatry in NYC named Seidman who is an expert at using testosterone for refractory depression in men over 30. I think thats his name, its something like that. Either way thats the place to go for testosterone clinical trials for severe depression. Search Medline for abstracts if you want to read up on it if you havent done so already.
Go legit with this one to keep you out of any legal troubles and dont let the naysayers get you down!
Igor
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 21:53:28
In reply to Re: Last thoughts on Testosterone and Scheduled drugs, posted by Psychquackery on July 31, 2003, at 16:09:36
Hey,
Thanks for having an open mind and understanding where I am coming from.For now,I am sticking with psych meds until I am ready(have enough $)and cycle again.For now I am stuck with...-zoloft: no sex whatsoever,apathy,still have the low mood
-ritalin:Helps a little w/apathy
-klonopin:stops the panic but I think its exacerbating depressionMy wife is weary of my test usage but the difference in me is remarkable and she knows it.
Test for me,made me feel for her again.I would want to caress her and be loving all the time.On psych meds,I don't like to be near her,or cuddle. I get agitated and need space.TEST=No depression or panic attacks and the sex drive of my teenage days.I will not post on Test usage after this wave of messages passes.People dont understand it but something is there.They only want to hear MAOI,SSRI,TCA or BENZO'S.Why it cures my panic is the biggest question I have.I am well versed in the matter and will get blood tests and monitor my vitals.I will keep it as safe as can.
Take care
Posted by jerrympls on July 31, 2003, at 23:50:20
In reply to Re: Last thoughts on Testosterone and Scheduled drugs » Psychquackery, posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 21:53:28
I went to an endocronologist as a referral from my psychiatrsit because my depression had been so resistant to treatment. The endo dr. did many blood tests and found my testosterone was a little low (I'm a 31 year old male). He said "Let's try some testosterone, because that could very well help your depression - and if it works, then great...."
I was lucky to have him and not a closed-minded doc.
Hope you can find a good one as well!
Best wishes-
Jerry
This is the end of the thread.
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