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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rayww on February 15, 2003, at 11:04:18
When I was banned, I read
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030125/msgs/137586.html
and wrote the following, not really a response to Dave1, but kind of.Errors in relationships caused by psychosis can be reversed. There are two sides to reversals. It is the reversal that needs to be reversed.
The mental disorders have non-healing labels. If the label could include the gift side of the disorder, it might give the disordered something to look forward to. Instead of the label manic depressive why not gifted psychosis? Who wants a disordered label?
Half of the overcoming lies in recognizing the psychotic side of yourself, and in having hope in the gifted side.
I can file the reversals into the category of psychotic behavior, and file the super accomplishments into the gifted folder. Since I willingly take the credit for the good I have done, I suppose I must also take responsibility
for any harm I have caused. However, if the theory is correct about fire giving off light, even that can be turned into good.Psychosis is the sudden illumination of ordinary things (conversation and motion) that brings fantasy to the forefront of a persons reality. This psychotic illumination of normal activity can feel more real than the reality. (ex) The letter took on a psychotic illumination, which sped (spread) back through our professional working relationship, illuminating every
word, contact, phone call, with its own psychotic interpretation, convincing me that we were attracted to each other. In reality we were not, but in psychosis the fantasy literally became the reality.Although the psychosis can exit as quickly as it attacks (attracts), habits that have been formed during it, may need to be corrected in the reality. Hence, a person may feel immoral and sinful in their reality because of how they felt in their psychosis, even though they did not act out any of it.
In short, I am now able to identify exactly when my reversals have struck. I do not feel as responsible or as sinful as I once did. I have
discovered what my values are and I have strengthen them. I hope I have helped
others along.By catching the psychotic imposer I am better able to identify the crisis. By identifying the crisis I am able to recognize when I need to increase my meds, supplements and take better care of my general health. Inside a crisis is a great time to back away and write a book. Anything can be acted out in the writing. In the understanding I can catch the intruder and reverse the reversal.
New topic:
How do you label yourselves? I would like to read a definition of everyone's personal label. here's mine: I didn't know it was my label until it was pointed out. I thought it was just an introduction.
I cannot boast a formal education, but I have an educated heart and a soul that yearns for the discovery of all truth. I am a hairdresser by trade, a seamstress by choice, a wife, mother, grandmother, aunt, sister,daughter, DIL, all of which add a dimention to my learning and understanding of people of all shapes, and sizes, emotionally, spiritually, physically, and socially. I am also a fatherless daughter who was born without a vagina, thus I know of both physical and emotional pain. I am a daughter togrief, a mother of pain, a sister to compassion, and a wife to perceived but unfounded abuse. I would like some day to be a writer. My wonderful father's untimely death was the pivit point of my life.
My other label:
I am Bipolar.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 15, 2003, at 13:42:16
In reply to Psychotic errors can be reversed, posted by rayww on February 15, 2003, at 11:04:18
rayww,
You wrote,[...half of the overcoming lies in recognising the psychotic side of yourself...].
This is one of the major parts of the experiance that I had that I have been describing here. Does your faith ,perhaps, calls this [the two natures of man]?
Lou
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 15, 2003, at 15:35:29
In reply to Psychotic errors can be reversed, posted by rayww on February 15, 2003, at 11:04:18
ray,
you are a writter. that was completely beautiful.i am a mother .an artist.
my lable...
me
jy
Posted by rayww on February 15, 2003, at 18:08:19
In reply to Re: Psychotic errors can be reversed » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on February 15, 2003, at 13:42:16
> You wrote,[...half of the overcoming lies in recognising the psychotic side of yourself...].
I saw/felt a picture/vision of my life when I was in my psychosis. I didn't know how to label it because it felt so real. It was definately on the spiritual side of the cycle and most definately illuminated far above and beyond the norm. The way I justified it, in order to file it in the right place, was to conclude that God teaches us in our own language and understanding for the moment. When we are in our deepest need and reach out to Him, He will enlighten our minds with enough light and knowledge to get us through the day. When we require extra protection, He will walk beside us (footprints).
Lithium put me in LaLa land. Epival took the edge off the spiritual swing, and though others could feel it in me, I couldn't feel the spirit in myself. I hated it, it was awful, and I don't plan to try those experiments again. (Although by reading here, Nardil is tempting.)
> This is one of the major parts of the experiance that I had that I have been describing here. Does your faith ,perhaps, calls this [the two natures of man]?
> LouPossibly Lou. All things are spiritual to the Lord, but man was born carnal. As we put off the natural man, (self-discipline and obedience to conscience) we naturally become more spiritual. You've likely seen the picture with the caption, "We're not human beings having a spiritual experience, we're spiritual beings having a human experience" Actually, that would describe the two natures of man.
Lou, you had a real experiance, meant specially for you.
Posted by rayww on February 15, 2003, at 18:15:17
In reply to Re: Psychotic errors can be reversed » rayww, posted by justyourlaugh on February 15, 2003, at 15:35:29
and-you are a poet. beautiful.
Posted by JohnV on February 16, 2003, at 7:02:08
In reply to Psychotic errors can be reversed, posted by rayww on February 15, 2003, at 11:04:18
Ray that was great and brave of you, thank you. I have developed this real fear of the world and going outside, especially as a result of the more manic times in my cycling. They where indeed psychotic breaks but that isn't to say all mania is psychotic. I found it so important to tackle that fear of going outside into the world, because it is robbing me of my life and chances to enjoy it. I fear the arrogance that people feel towards someone like us in that they think they are mindfully superior. I have never liked competition, and have always felt most of it is dangerous because it divides people. Hence I don't like sports and even when trying to get a good job, we feel like somebody else is measuring our worthiness up.Maybe this all is my depression and anxiety speaking. I find it so hard to distinguish between the two as time goes on. I am about to go into an outpatient hospital program after 8 or so years of mostly Hell with my illness. A few doctors have stated I seem to sit somewhere between an aggitated depression and severe anxiety, and possibly bipolar 2 with very rapid cycling. I am sure many of us have felt this, and that is sometimes I feel like an alien, and just watch the world go on while I shrivel into my corner. But I know there are millions out there suffering the same fate, and that barely has sustained me, sometimes.
If this is a part of me, though, I certainly am not going to go apologizing to the world for it. I figure as long as I don't hurt anybody else, we have a right to what is a deep part of us. In fact I think it is a part of the human condition, and maybe all of the 'normals' are the odd-ones out who should be forced to be on medication and in therapy.
Posted by rayww on February 16, 2003, at 9:46:54
In reply to Re: Psychotic errors can be reversed » rayww, posted by JohnV on February 16, 2003, at 7:02:08
JohnV I would like to respond to every word you have written, because you have expressed some things here that are very significant.
>
>I have developed this real fear of the world and going outside, especially as a result of the more manic times in my cycling.So, although you may not be manic or depressed at the present, you still fear the world. I haven't recognized that in myself, but I know that more times than not I get to the bank 1 minute before closing, or walk into meetings 10 minutes late, or put off grocery shopping all day, when I intended on going in the morning.
> They where indeed psychotic breaks but that isn't to say all mania is psychotic.
Why would anyone want to file their super mom or superman accomplishments into the psychotic folder? Super poet, super artist, super writer. The world needs these people. If I am on a committee I will seek out the bipolars to work with me. I will accept and love all the parts.
> I found it so important to tackle that fear of going outside into the world, because it is robbing me of my life and chances to enjoy it. I fear the arrogance that people feel towards someone like us in that they think they are mindfully superior.
The world so needs understanding! and people need to protect one another.
>I have never liked competition, and have always felt most of it is dangerous because it divides people. Hence I don't like sports and even when trying to get a good job, we feel like somebody else is measuring our worthiness up.So, we give up and don't try. I am in my give-up mode right now. I can't even see through simple chores. But I have a lot of hope and I am going to write a book on how to work through any type of mood. some day.
>
> Maybe this all is my depression and anxiety speaking. I find it so hard to distinguish between the two as time goes on.The distress of the illness is this confusion of emotions. When you feel depression in the mania, or constant anxiety, its hard to know if you need a pill or a change in lifestyle. Even a crisis, or a sudden disaster cannot snap us back in order. It only puts us into another state of being.
>I am about to go into an outpatient hospital program after 8 or so years of mostly Hell with my illness. A few doctors have stated I seem to sit somewhere between an aggitated depression and severe anxiety, and possibly bipolar 2 with very rapid cycling. I am sure many of us have felt this, and that is sometimes I feel like an alien, and just watch the world go on while I shrivel into my corner. But I know there are millions out there suffering the same fate, and that barely has sustained me, sometimes.
>I wish you all the best.
What medication have you tried?> If this is a part of me, though, I certainly am not going to go apologizing to the world for it. I figure as long as I don't hurt anybody else, we have a right to what is a deep part of us. In fact I think it is a part of the human condition, and maybe all of the 'normals' are the odd-ones out who should be forced to be on medication and in therapy.
>I have often thought that too.
Oh, to have someone who could love all the parts of us, without trying to fix the broken ones. Just let us break once in awhile, we'll be all right in a few days. Let us swing, let us roll, let us be ourselves. You are right, we are all the parts, but there is beauty to be found in every one of them. However, having said that, I do realize the danger of the mania, and the need to suppress harmful behavior. Strong religious values are not strong enough if the spiritual wires get crossed.I went on the truehope program in September and found the real me. I'm not sure I like her. She seems lazy, and sits around the computer too much waiting for the mood to strike, which somehow isn't there any more. I have lived my whole life according to mood (mode). So, rather than learn how to set goals and deliberately work toward them, long term, I have always worked in short term cycles, according to mood. I think I need illumination of mind in order to see through people and projects. How do normal people survive? To me they seem like robots, like they program a routine into their brain, and never again have to think about it. but, alas, I do wish I could do that. maybe I will try. or else throw my supplements away and go for the mood.
Posted by JohnV on February 17, 2003, at 7:28:57
In reply to Re: Psychotic errors can be reversed » JohnV, posted by rayww on February 16, 2003, at 9:46:54
Ray..thanks very much for your time and thought. These are really important issues, and you initial questions helped me think about the bigger picture regarding my situation, and mental illness in general. You also mentioned you have to deal with some major issues most of us don't, and I feel deeply for you, because you have every right as a human to unconditionaly live a rich and happy life. I wanted to respond to a few more of your comments..so here goes:>
> >
> >I have developed this real fear of the world and going outside, especially as a result of the more manic times in my cycling.
>
> So, although you may not be manic or depressed at the present, you still fear the world. I haven't recognized that in myself, but I know that more times than not I get to the bank 1 minute before closing, or walk into meetings 10 minutes late, or put off grocery shopping all day, when I intended on going in the morning.Yeah, it's like this switch goes off, and even a sunny day can all of a sudden feel and seem dark, dreary and dreadful. Then when you avoid things, you become less confident, and the depression and tears just flow and flow. I recall even a few weeks ago getting my Mom a birthday card at a drug store, and all of a sudden the tears just started, and wouldn't stop. Absolutely no control, but I truly think we have to be gentle with ourselves about this, and even with all of the 'cognitive behavioural therapy' in the world, sometimes you just "cannot" tell yourself how or what to feel.
> > They where indeed psychotic breaks but that isn't to say all mania is psychotic.
>
> Why would anyone want to file their super mom or superman accomplishments into the psychotic folder? Super poet, super artist, super writer. The world needs these people. If I am on a committee I will seek out the bipolars to work with me. I will accept and love all the parts.I think this is an issue with me because I tend to have a large crossover with my mania, and a very closely related "dysphoric" mania, which easily leads to a psychotic break from relaity. I tend to be irritated, and deeply frustrated at what is beyond my control. I had a quite severe learning disability as a child, and logical tasks where deeply hard for me. Part of that is still with me, even if I can pull off A's in university. But sometimes I fall flat on my face, and again the frustration leads to anger, and again it can almost become the dysphoric mania and even traces of psychosis. Does that make sence?..hehe.
> > I found it so important to tackle that fear of going outside into the world, because it is robbing me of my life and chances to enjoy it. I fear the arrogance that people feel towards someone like us in that they think they are mindfully superior.
>
> The world so needs understanding! and people >need to protect one another.Yes..I so heartedly agree, but as you know, the focus on every aspect of our lives in the Western World is based on this "always happy" persona, where everybody is always laughing, has a nice home, drive nice cars, etc. In fact, we have all of these pop-psychologists telling us "don't worry...be happy", and as one friend put it, it's like we've developed this "Supermodel" image of what our internal psyche should be. Like real-world physical "Supermodels", I think it is a very unhealthy thing, and we are really starving our "souls" of the wonderful wide range of emotions you don't see usually in the "workday world" or even on the idiot-box t.v.
>
> >I have never liked competition, and have always felt most of it is dangerous because it divides people. Hence I don't like sports and even when trying to get a good job, we feel like somebody else is measuring our worthiness up.
>
> So, we give up and don't try. I am in my give-up mode right now. I can't even see through simple chores. But I have a lot of hope and I am going to write a book on how to work through any type of mood. some day.It's really that hope, even the tiniest glimpse of it, I think that carries us on even in the darkest days. I think it would be wonderful if you wrote a book on your experiences, because we need more stories of both struggle and even small victories for us "mental health consumers" out there. I find a lot of value in reading first-person narrative of someones struggle with mental illness, because I think often in those we can find a reality and even hope we could never get from some "10 ways to make yourself happy" type book. And yes it is absolutely ok to just have those times when you say..."f**k it", survival mode, exile mode, I call it, or also "write off days" as I also called them. Focus on this minute you are in...and blank out worries about tommorow...because your soul is needy at this moment, and you can't ignore that. This may sound cliche, but time proves to be such a great healer...sometimes. Even if it takes years.
>
> >
> > Maybe this all is my depression and anxiety speaking. I find it so hard to distinguish between the two as time goes on.
>
> The distress of the illness is this confusion of emotions. When you feel depression in the mania, or constant anxiety, its hard to know if you need a pill or a change in lifestyle. Even a crisis, or a sudden disaster cannot snap us back in order. It only puts us into another state of being.Yes, exactly. I tend to keep it as simple as I can...and focus in the deepest dark times on symptoms. My doctor can help me with this too...and if it's anxiety, treat it as such. Depression, the same. And psychosis, the same. Once we find some ground to grasp onto, and the symtoms fade, we can continue our little babysteps. When everything is mixed up, my doctor will treat each of the symptoms together, and it is in therapy I hope to be able to use to help plan longer term goals with my symptoms tamed.
> >I am about to go into an outpatient hospital program after 8 or so years of mostly Hell with my illness. A few doctors have stated I seem to sit somewhere between an aggitated depression and severe anxiety, and possibly bipolar 2 with very rapid cycling. I am sure many of us have felt this, and that is sometimes I feel like an alien, and just watch the world go on while I shrivel into my corner. But I know there are millions out there suffering the same fate, and that barely has sustained me, sometimes.
> >
>
> I wish you all the best.
> What medication have you tried?Hey..thanks very much. I've pretty much been on everything you can prescribe in N. America, but am finding low dose Effexor plus higher dose Clonazepam, and PRN Risperdal the most effective out of the bunch. The clonazepam at higher doses takes the place of a mood stabalizer, which it pretty much acts like, with excellent anti-anxiety benefits.
How about yourself? You seem to have an excellent grasp and perspective on your situation. I'd seriously keep that book writing in mind. Have any medications helped lay the 'groundwork' towards healing?
> > If this is a part of me, though, I certainly am not going to go apologizing to the world for it. I figure as long as I don't hurt anybody else, we have a right to what is a deep part of us. In fact I think it is a part of the human condition, and maybe all of the 'normals' are the odd-ones out who should be forced to be on medication and in therapy.
> >
>
> I have often thought that too.
> Oh, to have someone who could love all the parts of us, without trying to fix the broken ones. Just let us break once in awhile, we'll be all right in a few days. Let us swing, let us roll, let us be ourselves. You are right, we are all the parts, but there is beauty to be found in every one of them. However, having said that, I do realize the danger of the mania, and the need to suppress harmful behavior. Strong religious values are not strong enough if the spiritual wires get crossed.Yes indeed! I should have added a few more things to my statement above, because I know that in a deep depression or manic phase, there is the potential to do some nasty harm. Plus, it just feels *horrid*, so uncomfortable, like a zillion volts running through the body. But, we gain a ton of insight from our experiences, and sometimes it feels like somebody who hasn't "been there" just can't relate and that makes me a bit sad.
> I went on the truehope program in September and found the real me. I'm not sure I like her. She seems lazy, and sits around the computer too much waiting for the mood to strike, which somehow isn't there any more. I have lived my whole life according to mood (mode). So, rather than learn how to set goals and deliberately work toward them, long term, I have always worked in short term cycles, according to mood. I think I need illumination of mind in order to see through people and projects. How do normal people survive? To me they seem like robots, like they program a routine into their brain, and never again have to think about it. but, alas, I do wish I could do that. maybe I will try. or else throw my supplements away and go for the mood.
Are you still on the TrueHope program? Do you take any medications? I did quite well one year on a prescribed vitamin and suppliment program. Things where going good in my life at the time, though, so I think that helped make things well.
The effects where just as good as from any medication, but it took me a long time to build it up and find the right balance. I have been on Effexor for so long, and it has helped, that I wouldn't dare stop it after all my other experiments. And yes, I opperate in the same way, working according to my mood/mode and having a hard time with long-term goals.If you become too uncomfortable with the mental direction you are going in right now, have you considered either good therapy or further medication trials? Having swallowed most psych pills in existence, I'd be more than glad to offer any of my perspective matched with your symtoms. It may not amount to much, but there always is a chance.
I have found that the times I can 'move on' in life are ones when I have both put my past in proper perspective, can laugh at myself, forgiven some others, and have a small task to accomplish. ANything too big is out of the question.
Anyways, I hope to hear from you, and hope you are able to find some peace in your day. Sincerely,John (the 'V' one:)
Posted by rayww on February 18, 2003, at 0:01:34
In reply to Re: Psychotic errors can be reversed » rayww, posted by JohnV on February 17, 2003, at 7:28:57
>, survival mode, exile mode, I call it, or >also "write off days" as I also called them.
I'll have to remember that.
>
>
I'm too much of a fixit person, and always think I can handle it on my own, if only I change this or that behavior. Medications did help, but the problem doesn't ever go away.> Are you still on the TrueHope program? Do you take any medications? I did quite well one year on a prescribed vitamin and suppliment program. Things where going good in my life at the time, though, so I think that helped make things well.
> The effects where just as good as from any medication, but it took me a long time to build it up and find the right balance. I have been on Effexor for so long, and it has helped, that I wouldn't dare stop it after all my other experiments. And yes, I opperate in the same way, working according to my mood/mode and having a hard time with long-term goals.
>I went off truehope a couple of weeks ago, and wouldn't you know it, I got a cold. I have been around colds and flu all winter, and haven't had a problem, so maybe the nutrients do more than work on moods. My nails are stronger too, which leads me to believe I was deficient in something before.
I went back on truehope a couple of days ago, but still feel out of it.> If you become too uncomfortable with the mental direction you are going in right now, have you considered either good therapy or further medication trials? Having swallowed most psych pills in existence, I'd be more than glad to offer any of my perspective matched with your symtoms. It may not amount to much, but there always is a chance.
>Tht's offly knd of u. In a couple of weeks, after the cold and the back ache are gone maybe.
> I have found that the times I can 'move on' in life are ones when I have both put my past in proper perspective, can laugh at myself, forgiven some others, and have a small task to accomplish. ANything too big is out of the question.
>
that alone is pretty big. I can't complain to a doctor because from the outside looking in I have an enviable life and the risk seems too high.It would take too much effort to figure it out. You know, how to find the right person, make the appointment, actually show up, and once there to know the words. I wouldn't know how to do that. Figuring things out is something very personal to me. So far I've been able to survive on personal progress. I have my own (peculiar) ideas about how things should work I guess.
This is the end of the thread.
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