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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TSA West on April 20, 2002, at 21:07:34
How would someone procure enough Inositol to replicate the 12 g trials (for depression) mentioned in the literature?
Posted by IsoM on April 21, 2002, at 0:44:22
In reply to Inositol Trial, posted by TSA West on April 20, 2002, at 21:07:34
Not sure how much would be needed, but granular lecithin (not the oily lecithin, it's mostly oil) is very rich in both inositol & choline. You can buy it in health food stores. Too much lecithin can cause sweating, nausea, vomiting, bloating, & diarrhea in some people.
Posted by Bekka H. on April 21, 2002, at 23:00:31
In reply to Re: Inositol Trial » TSA West, posted by IsoM on April 21, 2002, at 0:44:22
> Not sure how much would be needed, but granular lecithin (not the oily lecithin, it's mostly oil) is very rich in both inositol & choline. You can buy it in health food stores. Too much lecithin can cause sweating, nausea, vomiting, bloating, & diarrhea in some people.
*************************************************
Hi IsoM,
I didn't know that the granular was better than the oil. Is granular better than the capsules, too? Somewhere along the way, I thought that the capsules and/or oil were better because they were already oil, whereas the granules would need to broken down more before they could be utilized.When you say that too much lecitin can have those adverse effects, what would be considered "too much"?
Thanks.
Bekka
Posted by Ron Hill on April 22, 2002, at 0:57:08
In reply to Inositol Trial, posted by TSA West on April 20, 2002, at 21:07:34
> How would someone procure enough Inositol to replicate the 12 g trials (for depression) mentioned in the literature?
--------------TSA,
I have a personal interest in inositol as well. I've read just enough on the subject to be dangerous. From my limited reading, some say myo-inositol is the best form to take. Here are a couple of links that may or may not be of use to you. Also, if you do the trial, please post your impressions.
http://www.bgu.ac.il/bgn/Manic.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020322/msgs/100010.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96519.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96491.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96429.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96277.html
-- Ron
Posted by IsoM on April 22, 2002, at 1:14:31
In reply to Re: Inositol Trial - IsoM, posted by Bekka H. on April 21, 2002, at 23:00:31
Wish I could tell you how much was too much but I'm not sure. Suppose that if you start noticing those effects, it's too much.
Yes, the granular form is much stronger. Just like vitamin E can be found naturally in wheat germ, but is higher in wheat germ oil & then when extracted, the vitamin E is very concentrated in capsules.
Oils contain lecithin. But the lecithin can be concentrated from the oils. Lecithin capsules are mostly oil with a higher concentration (like the wheat germ oil & vitamin E).
Granular lecithin will dissolve in oils (fat soluble) but has little oil left in it & is very concentrated. I use it when making liquids I want to stay in emulsion like salad dressings. It's the lecithin in the egg yolk that enables mayonnaise to stay in emulsion & not separate.
Hope this explains it okay.
Posted by Jaynee on April 22, 2002, at 12:13:05
In reply to Inositol Trial, posted by TSA West on April 20, 2002, at 21:07:34
Posted by Jaynee on April 22, 2002, at 12:36:14
In reply to Site, posted by Jaynee on April 22, 2002, at 12:13:05
I take IP-6, because it helps to block the amount of iron I absorb from my food. Of course excess iron can cause treatment resistant bi-polar depression.
nositol phosphates with different numbers of phosphate groups influence
iron absorption in humans.Sandberg AS, Brune M, Carlsson NG, Hallberg L, Skoglund E, Rossander-Hulthen L.
Department of Food Science, Chalmers University of Technology, University of Goteborg,
Sahlgrenska Hospital, Goteborg, Sweden. Ann-Sofie.Sandberg@FSc.Chalmers.seBACKGROUND: Inositol hexaphosphate (IP(6)) is a well-known inhibitor of iron absorption,
whereas the effects of the less-phosphorylated derivatives of IP(6) are less known.
OBJECTIVES: The objective was to investigate the effects of inositol tri-, tetra-, and
pentaphosphates (IP(3), IP(4), and IP(5), respectively) on iron absorption in humans. DESIGN:
Iron absorption was measured in 5 experiments from single meals by extrinsic labeling with
(55)Fe and (59)Fe and determination of whole-body retention and the erythrocyte uptake of
isotopes. In experiments 1-3 the meals contained white-wheat rolls to which 10 mg P as IP(5),
IP(4), or IP(3), respectively, was added. Inositol 1,2,6-triphosphate [Ins(1,2, 6)P(3)] and a
mixture of isomers of IP(4) and IP(5) were studied. White-wheat rolls contained 10 mg P as
IP(3) + IP(4) and 2 mg P as IP(5) + IP(6) in experiment 4 and 20 mg P as IP(3) + IP(4) and 3
mg P as IP(5) + IP(6) in experiment 5; inositol phosphates were obtained via fermentation of
sodium phytate. Each experiment had 8-11 subjects. RESULTS: In experiment 1, iron
absorption was reduced by 39%, whereas there was no significant effect on iron absorption in
experiments 2 and 3. In experiments 4 and 5, iron absorption was reduced by 54% and 64%,
respectively, suggesting that IP(3) and IP(4) contributed to the inhibitory effect.
CONCLUSIONS: IP(5) has an inhibitory effect on iron absorption, whereas IP(3) and IP(4) in
isolated form have no such effect. IP(3) and IP(4) in processed food contribute to the negative
effect on iron absorption, presumably by binding iron between different inositol phosphates. To
improve iron absorption from cereals and legumes, degradation of inositol phosphates needs to
be to less-phosphorylated inositol phosphates than IP(3).PMID: 10426701 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by Ron Hill on April 22, 2002, at 16:07:30
In reply to Re: Site, posted by Jaynee on April 22, 2002, at 12:36:14
Posted by jonh kimble on April 22, 2002, at 23:08:10
In reply to Re: Site, posted by Jaynee on April 22, 2002, at 12:36:14
>I take IP-6, because it helps to block the amount of iron I absorb from my food. Of course excess iron can cause treatment resistant bi-polar depression.
very interesting, i didnt know that. i have tried dosens of meds for social anxiety/ dysthymia without a rsponse, but i also take a multi with iron. think there could be a connection?
jon
Posted by Jaynee on April 23, 2002, at 13:37:39
In reply to Re: iron and lack of response, posted by jonh kimble on April 22, 2002, at 23:08:10
Hi John. Most men do not need extra iron. In fact extra iron causes all kinds of problems. The fact that they fortify everything with iron doesn't help either. Look up extra iron on PUBMED. Unless your doctor has checked your ferritin and transferrin saturation to prove you are anemic, stop taking iron. I have hemochromatosis, I absorb too much iron from my diet. It is the most common hereditary disorder in North America and Northern Europe. It is also mis-diagnosed 90% of the time. Of course depression is one of those mis-diagnoses.
Check-out these sites for more info. If you haven't been tested, I would get tested. The treatment is easy. Just donate and unload alot of blood.
http://www.cdnhemochromatosis.ca
PUBMED site:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed
Good luck, and if I can answer any more questions, just let me know.
Posted by Jaynee on April 23, 2002, at 13:50:51
In reply to Re: iron and lack of response, posted by Jaynee on April 23, 2002, at 13:37:39
Another article for anyone interested.
The possible crucial role of iron accumulation combined with low
tryptophan, zinc and manganese in carcinogenesis.Johnson S.
Iron can react with citric acid, interfering with the Krebs cycle, hence with oxidative
phosphorylation. Free iron (Fe) can cause considerable oxidative damage both through Fenton
reactions and by activating xanthine oxidase, which produces both superoxide (O(2-)) and uric
acid (abundant in many cancers). It can also react with lactic acid, reducing its elimination and
increasing the acidity of the cytoplasm. Fe can also wreak havoc by reacting with tryptophan, the
least abundant and most delicate essential amino acid, which is necessary for the production of
serotonin and other substances required by the immune system to fight cancer. On the other
hand, in the presence of iron, the tryptophan metabolite quinolinate causes intense lipid
peroxidation. Similarly, several other carcinogenic metabolites of tryptophan are particularly
dangerous in the presence of Fe. Excess Fe may also interfere with manganese superoxide
dismutase and impair the initiation of apoptosis by the mitochondrion, rendering the cells
impervious to all the signals to undergo apoptosis from without and from within the cell.
Moreover, Fe may also play a crucial role on telomere repair, by activating telomerase.
Therefore, by inhibiting apoptosis and enhancing chromosome repair, Fe may bestow immortality
upon the cancer cell. Furthermore, Fe is one of the triggers for mitosis. Therefore, increased Fe
levels may be essential for the rapid growth characteristic of many malignancies. In turn, the rapid
growth further depletes resources from the healthy tissues, exacerbating the deficiencies of the
other elements and reducing the ability to fight the malignancy. Copyright 2001 Harcourt
Publishers Ltd.PMID: 11735307 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by jonh kimble on April 23, 2002, at 14:15:19
In reply to Re: iron and lack of response, posted by Jaynee on April 23, 2002, at 13:50:51
thanks for the info. maybe ill give the multis a rest for a month for two, see how i do. i also take salmon oil, ginko, ginseng, and digestive enzymes. any thing interesting youve heard about any of these? how do i get tested for excess iron? what are some of the symptoms? iron undoubtably has its role in our bodies, probably our ancestors went some time without iron and this was evolutions response. good at the time, but has little positive place in our modern world.
jon
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