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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pullmarine on October 17, 2000, at 23:14:46
As you may well guess. I am not at all happy about our last session (to say the least). To begin with, I think your callous attitude had far more to do with my choice to cease taking medications than with issues that truly matter. and though I will agree that I am in pain, I prefer and choose this pain and anger over a brain that ceases part of it's natural thinking processes.
You were offended, and I doubly so. During the session, you compared me with Harold from the film 'Harold and Maude.' If you had met me a few years ago, then you might have met Maude. Spontaneous, loving, generous, caring, vivacious, and most of all, trusting. but she was gang raped and murdered and left along the side off the road, and what you see is all that's left. So be it.
Am I angry? You bet I'm angry.
I'm angry that my body was pumped full of Haldol during my sleep, without my consent or approval at the hospital where I checked in voluntarily, by a doctor who did not speak to me before pumping my system full of that stuff.
I'm angry that I was not informed of the side effects after it was administered
I'm angry that my therapist showed videos of my therapy sessions to people without
my consent. If he had asked I probably would have approved, but running into under grad. students who had seen the sessions the way I found out about it.I'm angry that my sister and my lover did not have peaceful means of taking their own lives.
I am angry that the first had to jump fourteen floors to her death, and that the latter had to hang himself.
I'm angry that when my time comes, it will probably have to be violent as well.
I'm angry that I was taken out of the sanctity of my home, against my will, and this, despite local laws, in order to be treated against my will for a planned overdose.
I'm angry about the forced castrations, lobotomies, aversion therapies that people like me have had to go through
I'm angry that people like me were starved to death and murdered during world war two.
I am angry that I was brought up left, right and center, like some unwanted kitten.
I am angry that I was ever born.
I am angry that if I do choose to 'shuffle off this mortal coil,' that I might be hospitalized and treated against my will.
I'm angry at the hypocrisy, the double standards, and the incoherence of the world.
Yes, I do find life to be an unpleasant and painful experience, and millions of people would agree.
And for those who don't, who are they to say that it is 'nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortunes' and 'the heartache and thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to'?
I asked you during the session if you had seen or read 'A Streetcar Named Desire.' It's the story of a murder, though the victim is very much alive (in body anyway) after being killed in cold blood. A more systematically planned out murder of this type occurs in 'dangerous liaisons.' And unfortunately, murders like these are common, and there is no recourse to the law.
Now that you have some of the facts, you decide whether my pain and anger are justified or not. If they are, then so be it.john
PS. If apologies were not the foundation for future offenses, I'd ask for one.
Posted by Racer on October 18, 2000, at 0:35:20
In reply to Letter to my doc. How sane is my insanity?, posted by pullmarine on October 17, 2000, at 23:14:46
What comes through most clearly here, for me, isn't that you're in pain, so much as you're trying to tap dance around it, and lay the pain elsewhere.
Remember, I'm nuts, too, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you wrote, just noting my reactions to it, in hopes it helps you. Or maybe not. Maybe the voices told me to, but really, I'm trying to be helpful here.
Anyway, what I 'hear' in this reminds me of me, back in my most intense therapy, when I was looking for any reason to avoid looking directly at my pain. I'd find all sorts of ways to say that it was somehow because of a larger issue that I was upset, rather than admitting that it was very personal. That's what your letter reminds me of, avoiding grief by making it larger, more impersonal, and somehow worth fighting.
Your situation, with being taken from your home, and given drugs against your will, all that, sounds awful, and degrading, and really dehumanizing and painful. I think I'd be crying over it. I'd be angry, too, but first I think I'd have to cry a river to rival the Mississippi!
I'm sorry that all this has happened to you, and I'm sorry that you're feeling so bad these days, and I'm sorry that you don't have access to a decent doctor, and I'm sorry that you don't feel there's anything to help you. I hope you do find something to ease your pain. Please know that your words have impressed me, and that I hope you'll stick around to write more here, even if it's not going to make you feel better.
Posted by pullmarine on October 18, 2000, at 0:43:24
In reply to Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by Racer on October 18, 2000, at 0:35:20
You're an angel and I send you all my love.
JOHN
Posted by stjames on October 18, 2000, at 2:09:14
In reply to Re: reply to: Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by pullmarine on October 18, 2000, at 0:43:24
> You're an angel and I send you all my love.
>
> JOHNJames here.....
Isn't Racer nice ? I think she is on to something.
Most everyone goes to thearpy and says "this is the problem"
but it never is. We would not need thearpy if we were all
in touch with what was really going on.I'm not going to partonize you by saying I understand how you feel
because I have never been where you are. I am sorry for your pain.
It does strike me that people don't get to this state "just because"
and often the hurting and being hurt started early. I am sorry if this happened, too.
Vent if you need too, I will listen.james
Posted by pullmarine on October 18, 2000, at 4:00:24
In reply to Re: reply to: Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by stjames on October 18, 2000, at 2:09:14
Hi james.
thanks for writing.> Isn't Racer nice ?
YUP!!!(I know it was a rhetorical question, but I love to answer back to rhetoric)>I think she is on to something.
Maybe.
> Most everyone goes to thearpy and says "this is the problem" but it never is. We would not need thearpy if we were all in touch with what was really going on.> I'm not going to partonize you by saying I understand how you feel because I have never been where you are.
Thanks, and if you did say you understood how I feel. I wouldn't believe you.
>I am sorry for your pain.
I'm not. I've gotten used to it. It's become my friend and protector.> It does strike me that people don't get to this state "just because"
Indeed!
> and often the hurting and being hurt started early. I am sorry if this happened, too. Vent if you need too, I will listen.
>
Thanks for your ears and eyes. I do vent via poems and short stories on psychosocial-babble, and I love hearing what people think about them.thanks for your support.
XO
john
Posted by shar on October 18, 2000, at 9:47:53
In reply to Re: reply to: Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by pullmarine on October 18, 2000, at 4:00:24
Pull,
I think about the "goal" question a lot, maybe it helps me get to the side of the pain momentarily to see what I want for myself. For you I would ask, what is it you want your doctor to know? Re meds, I'd ask, what do you want your life in the near future to be like?It is obvious you have been through hell. And back. Maybe even saw some good intentions along the way.
But, at this point, I think the question is what do you want to achieve in the near future about how you will feel on or off meds. What is your goal in writing the letter, what is your goal in getting off meds, what is your goal for the future? Some people believe that experiencing the pain of depression, or other psych "disorders" will deepen their knowledge of life or something like that. That's a goal.
When considering goals, I think it never hurts to think about the others in your life (family, etc.) or someone (even if it's a dog or cat) you care about. Because, if you have a psychotic episode (I'm not saying you're psychotic, just an example of a worst case scenario) it will have a strong impact on relationships with those you love (and pets have always loved me more truly than humans).
Having someone truly "understand" how we feel, is almost impossible IMHO. In 20 something years of therapy, I learned (recently) that the "understanding" may not be as important (or possible) as someone "accepting you" as you feel and as you are.
In other words, you get to keep your spot, hold onto yourself (don't give yourself up), and be who you are. And, if someone can accept that, and tell you where they are, you have more knowledge about the both of you than you'd ever imagine. That makes two genuine people, who know each other, and where they stand. The next part, and hardest, is accepting the differences that may exist.
But, that's another topic.
Your choice to be on or off meds, I believe, should be made in the here and now. The anger you feel (whether I understand it or "agree" with it) is there, as is the sadness, and the intense frustration of your experiences. Most of those experiences were in the past. The decision you make now is for your present and future. While you can use past information, it makes a poor raison d'etre for today or tomorrow.
If nothing else, those that you love and who love you (including you, yourself) deserve your best. If that occurs with meds, but you miss the passion, that's another goal question. Is it your goal to be passionate or to live a more functional life (with less passion). (BTW, there may be meds that afford you more "you" than the meds you've already tried.)
Good luck to you. Hope you don't plan on shuffling soon. I was very touched and saddened about your sister's death, and what you describe about your own experiences sounds horrifying and terrifying.
Shar
Posted by tdaneen on October 18, 2000, at 14:11:06
In reply to Re: reply to: Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by pullmarine on October 18, 2000, at 4:00:24
>
>
>
> >I am sorry for your pain.
> I'm not. I've gotten used to it. It's become my friend and protector.
>
What you said about your pain struck a nerve with me. It is my protector. It is what keeps me safe, leery of others who want to hurt me. When I am alone it is there, It is always there. It has always been there.
It is a paradox though. In many ways it is like an abusive husband. One of those toxic relationships that is just so blinding and addictive there is no other alternative but that.
I only came to this conclusion recently. I was in group, and I was asked point blank by my group leader why I was afraid to let go of my pain. I realized that I would no longer know who I would be.
The group thought that this would be a super opportunity to recreate a new "better" person. I gently reminded them that I could also screw that one up worse than I did the first one.So, here I am. Love my pain demon? Honor it like my protector and guardian? Keep striving to come to a place where I can be a casual visitor with it?
I dunno. To me it is a real entity. I guess that the best I would like to hope for would be for my pain to act more like a casual guest, not my siamese twin.
BTW: I've been following your posts for a while now. I am beginning to see some glimmers of light through the darkness of your posts. I'm wishing you all the best.-tdaneen
Posted by shellie on October 18, 2000, at 14:35:06
In reply to Re: reply to: Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by tdaneen on October 18, 2000, at 14:11:06
> What you said about your pain struck a nerve with me. It is my protector. It is what keeps me safe, leery of others who want to hurt me. When I am alone it is there, It is always there. It has always been there.> I only came to this conclusion recently. I was in group, and I was asked point blank by my group leader why I was afraid to let go of my pain. I realized that I would no longer know who I would be.
> The group thought that this would be a super opportunity to recreate a new "better" person. I gently reminded them that I could also screw that one up worse than I did the first one.
>Tdanneen, I was reminded of something when I read your post. I experience a lot of my depression as physical and in my chest. Several years ago I was working with a body therapist and in stages she was working on the area across my upper chest. At some point you could literally feel the difference in the area which she had worked on and the areas she had not yet reached. You could push in on that area and there was space. It didn't hurt but it didn't feel right, it was too empty.
I have little kids inside (alters/ego states, whatever) who are much better at imagery than I am and one of them wanted to put soil and plant flowers there to fill the space. And that seemed to do the trick with the emptiness.
So I was thinking, if you approached the pain very very slowly and exchanged something else little by little for small parts of the pain, it might be less scary for you. To not look at it as giving it all up at the same time, so that instead of a new person, you would be an evolving person.
for what it's worth,
Shellie
Posted by pullmarine on October 21, 2000, at 14:52:31
In reply to What's your goal? (long) » pullmarine, posted by shar on October 18, 2000, at 9:47:53
> Pull,
> I think about the "goal" question a lot, maybe it helps me get to the side of the pain momentarily to see what I want for myself.Very frankly, there's very little that I want. I'd make a great buddhist monk.
For you I would ask, what is it you want your doctor to know? Re meds, I'd ask, what do you want your life in the near future to be like?
In all sincerity, I'd like to be diagnosed with cancer ASAP, and go into palliative care ASAP, preferably in holland.
> It is obvious you have been through hell. And back. Maybe even saw some good intentions along the way.
>
I've known people who've been through more than I have.> But, at this point, I think the question is what do you want to achieve in the near future about how you will feel on or off meds.
On meds, My mind feels dull. Off meds, I still hate the hellish trip some call life, but at least, I have a working brain.
>What is your goal in writing the letter?
To let him know I found him callous and that there are issues that I need to discuss that were not being adressed because of his emphasis on sleep, apetite , etc..
>what is your goal in getting off meds, what is your goal for the future?
A working brain.
>Some people believe that experiencing the pain of depression, or other psych "disorders" will deepen their knowledge of life or something like that. That's a goal.
>
> When considering goals, I think it never hurts to think about the others in your life (family, etc.) or someone (even if it's a dog or cat) you care about. Because, if you have a psychotic episode (I'm not saying you're psychotic, just an example of a worst case scenario) it will have a strong impact on relationships with those you love (and pets have always loved me more truly than humans).
>
> Having someone truly "understand" how we feel, is almost impossible IMHO. In 20 something years of therapy, I learned (recently) that the "understanding" may not be as important (or possible) as someone "accepting you" as you feel and as you are.Very True.!!!!!
> In other words, you get to keep your spot, hold onto yourself (don't give yourself up), and be who you are. And, if someone can accept that, and tell you where they are, you have more knowledge about the both of you than you'd ever imagine. That makes two genuine people, who know each other, and where they stand. The next part, and hardest, is accepting the differences that may exist.
>
> But, that's another topic.
>
> Your choice to be on or off meds, I believe, should be made in the here and now. The anger you feel (whether I understand it or "agree" with it) is there, as is the sadness, and the intense frustration of your experiences. Most of those experiences were in the past. The decision you make now is for your present and future. While you can use past information, it makes a poor raison d'etre for today or tomorrow.
>
> If nothing else, those that you love and who love you (including you, yourself) deserve your best. If that occurs with meds, but you miss the passion, that's another goal question. Is it your goal to be passionate or to live a more functional life (with less passion). (BTW, there may be meds that afford you more "you" than the meds you've already tried.)
>
> Good luck to you. Hope you don't plan on shuffling soon. I was very touched and saddened about your sister's death, and what you describe about your own experiences sounds horrifying and terrifying.
>
> Shar
JOHN
Posted by pullmarine on October 21, 2000, at 14:56:05
In reply to Re: reply to: Sorry, but I dunno..., posted by tdaneen on October 18, 2000, at 14:11:06
I like this post. have you seen torchsong trilogy? if not, maybe you should. There's a great secene about the pain we carry in ourselves.
JOHN
> What you said about your pain struck a nerve with me. It is my protector. It is what keeps me safe, leery of others who want to hurt me. When I am alone it is there, It is always there. It has always been there.
> It is a paradox though. In many ways it is like an abusive husband. One of those toxic relationships that is just so blinding and addictive there is no other alternative but that.
> I only came to this conclusion recently. I was in group, and I was asked point blank by my group leader why I was afraid to let go of my pain. I realized that I would no longer know who I would be.
> The group thought that this would be a super opportunity to recreate a new "better" person. I gently reminded them that I could also screw that one up worse than I did the first one.
>
> So, here I am. Love my pain demon? Honor it like my protector and guardian? Keep striving to come to a place where I can be a casual visitor with it?
> I dunno. To me it is a real entity. I guess that the best I would like to hope for would be for my pain to act more like a casual guest, not my siamese twin.
>
Beautifully said.
>
> BTW: I've been following your posts for a while now. I am beginning to see some glimmers of light through the darkness of your posts. I'm wishing you all the best.
>
> -tdaneen
This is the end of the thread.
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